SPEAKER_00 0:10

Cet effort is a monument analysis to develop the NFU Glitz model and then the pathfinder and a cycle spiritual model. The NF created the essential cult model. The model to call the test called test and the monthly episode is called Portal Casting and the Curse and Thank you for tuning in for itself off with all kinds of title placing features and eyes, etc. Yeah, I think that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

And he's done many workshops and retreats and been a teacher for a long time. But first, our opening invocation, which is may the spirit flow freely through this conversation and this gathering, allowing it to be both energizing and edifying. And I always lead with an opening quote that's relevant to our topic, and we I would be interested in finding out the relevance of it from your point of view. So it's Dag Hammer Skull. He's a prior um a ter um what's it called of the United Nations? Something general of the United Nations. Quite a very spiritual man. Um he says, you are the lens in the beam. You can only receive, give, and possess the light as the lens does. If you seek yourself, you rob the lens of its transparency. You will know life and be acknowledged by it according to your degree of transparency, your capacity, that is, to vanish as an end and remain purely as a means. So to me, that sounds quite Buddhist. In that it's like an antidote to what the Buddhists call self-cherishing. It's the opposite of self-cher-cherishing. You know, all the having two gods, it is your own identity. So what does that quote mean to you, like for starters?

SPEAKER_04 3:13

So, you know, it's interesting. I I I think uh when I when I hear that, it reminds me actually of something uh similar and yet different, uh which is yes, I mean, of course, if we get on the way of our own light, uh uh you know uh we we obscure the lens, not the lens, but we obscure the uh the manifestation. And one of the ways that that I was taught in the Tibetan tradition was that our inner kind of you know, inner mind, which would be at more at the heart level, it's like a jewel. And so partly is how do we clear our jewel so that when we are in awareness, it's like the sun clearing through the jewel and bringing those rays and rainbows. So sometimes we think a lot of practice as a formal practice, and that is very, very important, yet also is very important informal practice. So, in my first trip to India back in 1989, this uh great spiritual friend, Karma Lundrup, he taught me something that I always kept, which is how to shower well. And how to shower well is not just the shower, but it's changing your mindset during the shower. So, what I used to do, and maybe some of you do too, is that when I would shower, like this morning, I would be thinking of my different meetings. Oh, I'm going to this coffee shop and I'm meeting so and so, and then I'm meeting so and so, and then I have this interview with Cedric, and then you know, whatever. And he said, Why are you doing that? Why, when you shower, just shower, and not only shower externally, but shower internally, and as you shower internally, he said, feel that your heart is like a crystal, and within that crystallinity, as you clear all that stuff, you take a breath and you connect to your awareness. So that awareness is like the inner light, the sun, and as the sun shines into the crystal, we bring rays and rainbows into our life. And so, partly every morning, my practice, my informal practice is how can I bring rays and rainbows into my day and my interactions with others?

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Wow, it's good. That's a beautiful practice and metaphor, also. So I'll do that starting with my next shower. It reminds me of you know the old the saying uh before enlightenment, chop wood carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood carry water. Yeah, like exactly in India they call it karma yoga. Yeah, speaking of India, we have uh Jariv, Jarif, who's our tech support if anyone needs it, and feel free, the attendees, to comment or ask questions in the chat. Um yeah, and of course, our audience is mainly helping professionals, counselors, therapists, and you have a big uh uh you know connection between your practice and emotional mental health.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

You're okay technically there?

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Let me see. I may be having some I I think let me see if it's connecting well.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, I mean we're seeing Are you hearing me well? Yeah, there's yeah, it's well enough.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

You are okay for some reason okay. Yeah for some reason it's not not feeling as as uh Yeah, the the as long as it's working, it's there's like a millisecond of delay between when you speak and you know, like lip syncing, but that's okay. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

It's not broke, but so we won't fix it.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

Okay, perfect, perfect then.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

You're you know that I have a funny association with your shower story because the actress who acted in Psycho, the famous Hitchcock movie. Don't know if you've ever seen it. Yes, you know, of course. Janet Lee, that shower scene. You know, she she, the person, the actress, could never take a shower again. She said she could never take a shower again. So so uh after going through that, and uh she could use that practice.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Yes, she could. Yeah, hopefully she's I don't I don't I I don't know if she's uh still alive and listening. She could she could use it.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Well, somewhere listening. So okay, so did did you have um what was the um turning point in in your journey from I don't know if you're ever uh like a real really worldly person, but becoming more spiritually minded, you know? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

I think my I mean I I I think of two main turning points. Um so one was when I was still living in Buenos Aires, so I'm originally from Argentina, and in the 70s we were having a very tumultuous time, uh, both uh from what you know kind of people against the government putting bombs and then the government taking becoming a military government and repressing and people disappearing. And there was a sense, of course, of uncertainty. And uh, although at that time I didn't really think of it this way to my internal experience, but my internal experience was waking up in the middle of the night saying, I'm gonna die, and then what? And then somehow, and I still don't remember how I got this book, Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. And when I got it, it was a game changer. Um, it talked about the suffering of birth, old age, sickness, and death, and that the path is meditation. And so immediately I started looking for whatever this meditation was. And luckily, a few years later, uh, through a high school friend, uh, his uncle was a TM meditation teacher, transcendental meditation. And so I got into that and it was very useful. And then uh, and then in college, I I uh I learned more like philosophy of India and so forth, and so I traveled to India. So that first moment was really important. The second moment came when I went to India in 1989-90. And as I was there, actually, I ended up being nine-month, which I call my second gestation period. So there were many important moments during that time, but one that I consider one of my turning moments was when um I was after a very known uh pilgrimage called Amarnat Cave, uh, in the area of Jabbu, Kashmir, Ladakh. I had been with the Ladakhis and the Tibetans in their monasteries and have seen that the Dalai Lama was very revered. I I knew very little of him, I have to admit. So I I after Amarnat Cave, I was actually with this uh Muslim family, and we were biking to Srinagar, and suddenly in the paper it said that the Dalai Lama had been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. And I was so happy, like if it was my mom or my dad getting it. And and then I decided to go and meet him. And so, you know, for those of you who know Indian geography, so we have someone from India here, so you know, uh, it takes quite a while to to get him more in those days. Uh, but anyways, I got to uh to Dharamsala in India, where the Dalai Lama and uh at that time a hundred thousand people had um Tibetans exiled from China, and so um I went to to meet him and there was a public blessing, and uh one of the things he said was a good heart is the best religion. And I was so touched, so touched that I was I stayed crying, but almost like tears of joy. There was a sense of finding myself, finding something. I had been born in Argentina in a Catholic country, in a Jewish family, went to Presbyterian school, was looking for Indian teachers, antibacks, you know, and suddenly it was all about a good heart. Uh he didn't ask anyone to convert or anything. He was just have a good heart. And it was so touching. So I think that was kind of huge shift, so much so that when I, you know, I had studied in my undergrad communications and particularly advertising, and when I came back to Argentina after this, it was now let's look into this area, and that's how I came then into Tibetan studies, religious studies, and then did my grad work in that.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, we we must be like same generation because it's amazing how many people who came of age in the 70s started with TM. Also, I started with TM when I was 18, uh, you know, twice a day, and then it changed form in the 80s and changed again. But the basic, you know, still basic uh mantra meditation. What what is your practice, like your dance practice uh currently?

SPEAKER_04 14:37

Like so currently um I have my practice varies, but the kind of the parts that stay the same. Um I usually now have a practice with my wife, where uh when we wake up and we we are when we are in Houston, we are facing east, and so we can see the sunrise. And um and we do a practice that includes some breathings, some Tibetan yoga movements, some meditation. Um and then we drink mate, which is a very Argentinian drink, and uh and it's a shared drink, right? You you put the water for the other person, the other person drinks, and vice versa. And then we talk about the day. So, what are you doing? What and then each one goes their way. And then um, usually right after that, I go to my altar. I have a room where I have my altar, and I do my practice. Uh, that again includes breathing sounds, prayers, Tibetan yoga. So yeah, and always in the Tibetan tradition, you start with kind of an invocation like what you did, right? A connection uh and an intention, then you do your practice, and then at the end, you do a dedication, which is you know, you start not only with your intention for yourself, but may this benefit others. Yeah, and at the end, in the dedication is the same, it's like actualizing that. Like, here it is, like we say, whatever we have virtues we may have gathered are like nectar that we now pour in the ocean so everyone can benefit from them, including yourself.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Right. Yeah, just you went for relationships and marriage, that way to start the day, that shared meditation is invaluable, like because, as you know, it gives you a foundation uh beyond or beneath the ego transactions, right? So there's always all the friction that happens in a relationship is usually ego-based, but you have this foundation you share, you stand on. So both of you are like backstage looking what's at what's happening on the stage, which is very different when you're on the stage and you know, battling it out without that.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

Yeah, yeah, and that's why you know we we find ourselves, even if we are rushing, let's say we have an early meeting, one of a you know, okay, no worries, let's do it shorter, but let's do it, you know. So it's it it it we really find it an important uh part of our day, um particularly if we are together. Sometimes we like now, she's in Costa Rica, I'm here in Houston. Uh, but but when we're together, it's it's it's a really important part.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

So how how did you discover the the interface between emotional and mental health, which you're very involved in as a our audience, you know, or therapists, counselors, and the the the intersection, the interface between those two, what we call psycho-spirituality, where we're integrating the two.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

So, first of all, um because of how I came to the practice and I realized that it helped me, that was already, even though it was not studying it in that way, I could feel that you know there was something there that later I I heard the the name in psychology of self-regulating, right? That I could self-regulate myself so that when I was whether it's uh angry or uh nervous or anxious, that oh, I could come to my practice whether I was reciting that mantra that uh was secret, uh, or that there's other mantras that are not secret, or that I was breathing uh or doing a mood, that that that would help me kind of come back, right? This self-regulation. And then um as I went into academia, I did both my master's and PhD in Tibetan studies, and within that there's a whole area of Buddhist psychology, and so so there, you know, connecting that. And then even further, the other piece that was really important was I I started volunteering uh at MB Anderson here, which is a large cancer center, and um, and so I was mostly with patients and caregivers, and then later with staff and faculty. And what we realized, and this was within the what then became the Department of Integrative Medicine, at that time it was what we call place of wellness. What we realized was the importance of kind of the emotional part and particularly stress, chronic stress, and production uh is it on his end or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

And how let me see if I can change. Let's see.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

I am I here or not? Can you see me or not?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, you were out for uh the last little bit. Now you're back.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Okay, so so what was the last part that you heard? I kept on top of myself, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

It's like meditation when when your your thoughts wander, you get distracted, and then you come back.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

So, yeah, exactly. So uh, so in a way, kind of you know being with patients and caregivers, kind of how to help them in what came up, right? In that difficult time, in that, and so um not only being able to teach in that context, but being every Thursday morning, actually, uh a little bit earlier than now at eight, uh, we would meet and we would discuss about the patients. And around the table, we had Psychologist, palliative care, uh, massage therapist, acupuncturist, I was the mind-body specialist, you know. So we had the oncologist, and uh sometimes chaplaincy. And so it was great because we all thought, okay, how can we help this person better? So we all learned from each other, and and and then how can we combine our you know instruments in a way, our techniques. And so, for example, you were talking about you know psychosocial, and um so one of the things, you know, of course, a lot of times with the psychologist, the health psychologist, you know, we would we would have a pre-post on, for example, anxiety. And if anxiety was between four and eight in a zero to ten scale, we realized that that was the area where mind-body practices can help. Uh, and psychology. So they would also be seen by psychology, but and so we would pair up, and and and actually, what was interesting, as the field uh progressed or grew, uh now many of the psychologists started using a lot of the meditation, mindfulness practices, act, and so forth. And so we would have similar methods as well. And then the other part that came, um, and I started working also in the area of mental health and at the Jung Center. I started the Mind Body Spirit Institute. COVID came, right? And uh and then the social part became really important. And I remember early on uh in a famous journal science, George Engel had written about the biopsychosocial, right? And people didn't pay much attention, but I think in COVID is where we realized that health was really, as he had said in the 70s, at the intersection of the physical, the social, and the psycho-spiritual. And so so I think uh that was very useful. And that's when also I started working more with staff and faculty and others, um, and I created something that I call CPR, but instead of cardiopulmonary resuscitation, it was compassional professional renewal, and so bringing back that compassion in a way, getting out of the way um and being able to be there to benefit others, but also not lose yourself, because otherwise that was another big issue of burnout, and we can talk about that if that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah. Is there a particular therapeutic approach that's a good fit for the Tibetan Buddhist uh model? Or the other way around, a model that's a good fit for the practices.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

You know, I I always feel that the first part of assessing what is needed. So I guess the first part is each of us have our own training, right? So we have our toolbox or our apothecary word that we are trained in. And then when we part of the assessment, I find is just be as present as possible, taking all your stuff out so you can be really there and listen. Listen with your ears, with your eye, with all your senses, and most importantly with your heart. And as you listen to, in this case, a patient, a person, you know, a human being in front of you, you connect to whatever they're saying, and then in a way, you go, or this is my way, you know, through my inner Rolodex. I don't know if some people might be too young to remember what a Rolodex is, but you know, kind of hear or hear and say, okay, what would be best for this person? So also in that context, even though my training was in the Tibetan tradition, some of the, you know, I've also learned, thanks to my teacher Tenzi Wanderan Puchay and Hison Lai Lama and others, that there is ways of bringing these tools in a very secular form. And so partly is again, how can we use this, for example, for self-regulation? But also, what I noticed, for example, people that came from religious traditions, for example, Christian traditions, when a couple, for example, I'm gonna mention a couple of cases without names, of course, that with their diagnosis, they in a way had an interruption in their rel, this is how they would express it, in their relationship to God. And so, for example, their prayers they felt almost less effective, almost like if if they were like a parrot, they would say, right? I'm saying the prayer, but not necessarily connected. And so, what I would do in that case is not say, oh, forget your religion, you need to be no, not at all. It's like that is what you're saying is very touching. Let me see if through this practice what you're you may open your heart so that you can re-establish that connection. And then when you do the prayer, so what you know, even though a lot of the times with meditation they feel is about kind of calm down, de stress, and so forth, that's only the beginning. It's about the connection, right? And so uh, like uh, you know, actually, when I when I started uh at MD Anderson, one of my teachers, Namka Nobrambuche, had also been diagnosed with cancer. And I remember asking him, what would be the best thing to share with a cancer patient? And he said, don't just teach them to calm down, teach them to connect. And you know, this connection is also a little bit like what my other teacher, Tanji Wandrampache, would say, which is remember again, I I might be uh, you know, uh showing my age, but you know, when when internet was not just password, and now is it, you know, uh how how many lines do we have in the connection, but it was something like did it. And when you were connected, now you're connected to the World Wide Web. So it's a little bit like that. You know, when you when the way I feel, even though I myself have not gone through cancer, but in other situations too, and what I see with my patients and family members that have gone through that, there's a sense of disconnection that you feel lonely, that you feel alone in the world for a moment or for more than a moment. And through these practices, you reestablish this connection, this connection that is with God, or whatever is your connection beyond you, but also with the group. So group practice is so important in that, in that sense of connecting with the group. And what I've seen over the years, I I've did both in the hospital, I did both group practices as well as individual practices, that people loved coming to the group. Partly, I guess it was free, but also because um there's something there, and then they would relate and they would keep friendships or connections even beyond the class. And so, you know, they created their own support groups, and um and as we know through behavioral research, the aspect of of again what I was saying, social support uh or social health, it's it's so so important. So, so yes, the psycho-social, psycho, spiritual social is crucial.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Right, very well said, all that. Yeah. Yeah, because religion at its best is about relationship. You know in the Judeo-Christian tradition, it's real and it's like the actual relationship with God and how that affects you on all levels. Right, which which begins with the connection. So uh I mean I'm just remembering what K Khalil Jabron said about uh it's it's not that God is in your heart and you you are in the heart of God. Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah, so with the I discovered the same thing with psychiatric patients. I I worked for years on a psych eMERGE ward. So people coming in in psychotic states. Really interesting because it formed the basis of my interview guidance theory on the ground level that all you had to do was make the person-to-person connection. Right? So like and that was my attitude that and they immediately, no matter how quote unquote crazy, and in a psychotic episode, I can't think of any of those patients who didn't pick up the respect that it was involved in that they felt. So, because my attitude going in every time I worked on the ward, and these were like including violent, dangerous patients, too. So when I would face them, I'm in this condition, you're in that condition, but here we are. Which I actually learned, you must know Ramdas. I actually learned that from Ramdas.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

Yeah, and and it is uh, you know, that kind of you sit back and you're like, here we are, two humans being in the same room, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:12

Um, one of my bosses, I guess, but also a great clinician, uh, also from Argentina, that actually was in Edmonton for a long time and uh is now at MD Anderson, Eduardo Rueda. He taught me, and and he used to say, uh, he says, uh, that the best tool that a clinician has is a chair. Because a chair allows you to be eye to eye with the patient, and when you are eye to eye, you can relate, you're not here, right? The doctor standing on top of the patient's uh bed or chair or behind the desk, or behind the desk. Exactly, exactly. It's here. You are we are two humans together. Tell me, tell me what's going on in your life, you know, and and of course, also the other part is as within the possibilities, letting them know that you're not in a rush, right? That that you have the time, because there's research showing that patients, you know, of course want to talk, but a lot of times clinicians are trained that they come with their chart and they kind of feel that they know already, right? And the patient wants to talk, but the the physician, many times, at least in the US, in many places, they they only have six to eight minutes, right? And so in their mind, they're already in a hurry because then they have to take notes, right? And so, and the patient's stories, at least from this research in Indiana, is around two and a half minutes, and so the moment that they start talking, they start interrupting every 30 seconds, yeah, and so and so there's this kind of interruption of that relationship rather than, and also there's the training that I already know what you have because I'm reading your chart. Instead of I want to hear from you as a human being what's going on, not just what's going in your liver or whatever it is, whatever area. So I think there's a an important part, and I I again going to uh to sources, um, Arthur Kleinman, uh, who was uh uh in Harvard as a um medical anthropologist, he would talk about the illness experience rather than just thinking of the deceased. So the illness experience is what is the patient kind of where is he or she coming from? Like, so for example, would this patient be coming from Canada, uh, but uh maybe be coming from a part of Canada that doesn't speak English, so comes speaking French and doesn't know English, and and couldn't come with the family because they, you know, it's expensive, and maybe they their insurance doesn't work in the US. So all these things are part of that illness experience, that it's not just this kidney cancer or whatever it is, right? So I think we need to understand all that. So as we what we did at Integrative Medicine was trying to understand that as we our stories of the patient were more than the usual one-liner of Mrs. So-and-so, it's a 28-year-old uh patient, a woman uh with breast cancer, stage two, right? Um, so she's also a mother, she's also uh she's coming with her husband or her boyfriend, and this and that, you know, all this informs how are we gonna approach that illness experience, not just her breast cancer.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

We call it the person behind the problem. And and you're you know, there's actually a chapter in my book called The Person Behind the Problem, but you're like taking a lot of pages out of my book. Like promoting your book here. No, what you just described is the inclusive self. We have a diagram like the inclusive self, you know, where all those elements surrounding the person are part, you as you say, they're they're very much a part of the per uh the picture, and you want the picture, right?

SPEAKER_04 38:13

You want the full picture of the whole person, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

So patient with the patient, right? The double meaning of patient to remind us to be patient.

SPEAKER_04 38:26

Exactly, but also that at least from an integrative medicine perspective, we are connecting and helping the person as a full person, not just the cancer that this person is having. And so actually, the person becomes also an integral part in his or her healing process, as he or she takes in all these uh different parts. In a way, uh a friend of mine, um Bhatya, she would uh she wrote a book called You Are the CEO of kind of as as as you know, uh of your treatment, right? I'm trying to remember exactly how she put it. Um but but it's this this sense of you need to be in control of I'm gonna do this and that, of course, being well advised by your doctors, but then you you take that and you decide, okay, yes, I'm gonna do acupuncture and massage and you know and so forth. And that's a little bit what we did in integrative medicine. I I I really think that integrative medicine is a is a great place, um, and it it gives the possibility for that full picture and for um people supporting. So, for example, when I would see a patient, I would already have their notes uh from the oncologist, let's say, and from also maybe they want to massage, and and we all put the notes in the same chart, and so and even the patient has access to all of that, and so we all know we are on the same page in a way, literally, right? Uh and um and so, yeah, I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

You said you had another case example? You mentioned me.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

I have many, I don't know what you know. When we um there's there's so many interesting situations. So, for example, uh another case that I thought was very interesting in terms of kind of mind setting, too. So this this patient, uh, besides actually seeing again the conventional doctors, it was seeing also a Tibetan medicine doctor, and one of these uh Tibetan doctors told her that you know, when you receive the chemotherapy, don't think of all these toxicities and all that, but rather focus on this being a nectar, the best medicine that will heal me, right? And so integrative medicine is not about alternative medicine, it's not instead of is how do we take the best of all worlds, and um you know, so each one has access to different things, and so I would say use all with certain coherence, of course, that makes sense to you, um, but don't just limit yourself to only one. So whether that is the conventional or the alternative, I would be more open and see which ones from the different all these plethora of things can work for you.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Back to a personal note. What is the thing that's most surprised you at this stage of your life?

SPEAKER_04 42:34

What is the thing that most surprised me? Um you know, again, I guess going back to Siddhartha, you know, the aging is interesting. You know, you start feeling things are a little different, right? Like uh we were talking about coffee, so I was down at the coffee. You know, like now in the now in the afternoon I have to take, well I don't have to, but I decide to take VCAF coffee. Uh I I wouldn't do that before. I would think almost that VCAF is evil, uh, as uh one of my colleagues who's uh who has a who has a coffee shop, that's his password. Um you know I I I uh you know I start noticing that I also have to be kind to to my body and my changes, physiological changes, and how do we adapt uh our life and our practices, including Tibetan yoga, right? So how you know the things that there's certain postures that could be adapted because the body is not the same. Um and and with that, knowing that also uh other bodies are not the same, and not only by aging, but you know, like I played rugby uh for over 10 years, and so my body still feels that and Many areas, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:01

And so uh it's the same, same, same here with hockey. Oh, so you go.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Yeah. So you have to be hard to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

In hockey in your late 30s, you have to accept aging because you can't keep up with the 20-year-olds anymore.

SPEAKER_04 44:19

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

And uh if you ever get down and depressed, or uh I wouldn't know what to call it, but who do you what or who do you turn to for inspiration? You know, to lift you back lift you back up.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Yeah, that's a great question. So I usually go back to my teachers, um you know my main teacher uh recently passed away at a hundred years old. And um and as he passed away he stayed in meditation for a week. And um, and I remember when he turned 95, my wife and I uh were there, and um and she said, you know, after all these years of meditation, do you feel suffering? And he said, you know, if you mean does my knee hurt from the bullet that I got blessed with from the Chinese, I feel the pain, but does it bother my mind? Not at all. And so this ability of saying, wow, I can be in that what we call spacious state of mind, yeah. Skylight, skylight, you know. So actually, in my last book whom that I dedicate to him, I said, you know, even in moments that I don't feel well, basically I just imagine him with his beautiful smile. And usually that already uplifts me. And we have a saying in the Tibetan tradition that it's like that obstacle is like a snowflake that dissolves in the ocean. But when it doesn't dissolve, which also it's many times, it's like, okay, the you know, what are the practices that I need to bring in? And um, and so that's what I try to do. Um, but I also like uh I also talk to friends, to psychologists, you know, so I I use the the tools depending on what I I feel I need. So I don't dismiss any of all these other parts. So it's not I don't think Dharma is instead of psychology, as a friend of mine, Harvey Aronson, was saying, it's it's it's both the the couch and the cushion, right? You need both, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yeah, so you you basically you practice what you preach.

SPEAKER_04 47:28

Yeah, as much as I can. There are times that I get into things that I'm like, ah, you know, but in general, in general, yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

About the inclusiveness, um Ramdas also said something really brilliant about the inclusiveness of the treatment and way of being. Because he said, like his definition of insanity was to use any one level to push away the others, right? And that's what happens with the quote-unquote bypass operation when people are not doing their psychological work because now they've transcended and they're spiritual, right? So that's using one level, the high one, and in order not to deal with her face, right?

SPEAKER_04 48:19

And my teacher Tensu Wandrapja is now using this, as you say, bypass, even to not take aware, not take uh uh care of your body in general, you know, not taking care of your sleep, not taking care of your food, not taking care, you know, that these are you need this body, you know, even though, as he said, it's it's an Airbnb. At some point we're gonna leave it. But during when you're there, you need to take care of it because when you feel your body is aching, or you ate something bad, and your stomach, you know, whatever it is, your practice also hurts, right? So if you could have your body, your mind, like your brain mind, also in the more sane way as possible, the easier it'll be to connect internally, right? And we say that we call it the three doorways, or the three doors, um, which is the doorway of the body, the doorway of the speech or energy or breath, and the doorway of the mind. And so we need to keep those doors as clear and open as possible so that we can connect internally. Um, so uh so yeah, the bypass of that, uh, particularly with many of you know, when we get into the spirituality and we think that's not important, or even relationships or whatever, you know, just be aware of what is kind of real for you. Uh there are people that you know they they they can be more in one way than others. Not everyone needs the same, but I think it's important to explore and kind of check in what's the reality with you.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Besides relationships is where the dharma is the most crucial and takes place in that arena, an arena, right? Like Lenin Coyote said, relationships, marriage is the hottest furnace of the spirit.

SPEAKER_04 50:41

Yeah, I think it's like as they say here in the US, where where the rubber hits the road, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:48

I really like that Airbnb that we, you know, we're temporarily staying in an Airbnb because the air part invokes the spacious awareness. So yeah, that's a good one. Okay, we're winding down, so I want to include the collective, the big picture. Uh since the world, as we all know, is in a pretty much a state of moral chaos, right? So because uh we've been talking on the personal level, which of course affects you know, has the ripple effect. But what would you say about this whole phase of you know, breakdown in civility, moral chaos? Uh I I watched a bit of this congressional hearing in the state, I couldn't believe it. Like I couldn't believe how they were carrying on, no matter what the issue is, right? It was about the Epstein files, but it could have been about something else. And I just went away from it saying, wait a sec, like this makes like 10-year-olds in the schoolyard look mature.

SPEAKER_04 51:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

So say about that, the moral chaos.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

So there's a couple of things. I think partly, you know, as as my teacher would remind me, do you forget that we are in samsara? So we are in this cyclic existence. So, um, and particularly at this time, it's called the Kali Yuga. So the age of you know moral debacle, and um, and probably, you know, we'll just have to clear the whole thing uh and uh have a big flush uh in whichever it is and and and rebuild. Um and I I think that um there's you know what are the it's a hard what kind of stance to take in that. So on one level, I think it's important to I mean certainly of not get lost into it, right? And so instead of you know getting trapped in all these stories and and point fingers out again, uh it's more like okay, how I'm actually part of that. We're all part, whether we want it or not. So how can I not contribute to that, right? How would it help at least start with my little circle? Me, my family, my friends, whoever, students, you know, so forth. Um and so, but also I think to to be clear on on your stance and um and say, you know, these things, you can't just uh say that this is right. I mean, it's there's so much, you know, in the Tibetan tradition, we say there's three main obstacles to not being connected, and those are hatred, greed, and delusion. And it seems now, actually, I was listening yesterday, together with uh over a thousand people listening to John Kabazin, and he was saying how, as you're pointing out, today, almost more than ever, it's all guided by greed, hatred, and delusion. And in a way, um we are all, you know, uh many are as they say here in the states, drinking the Kool-Aid. Um, and and it's really sad. So to keep sane is really practice can be a great help. Not to just totally be, you know, we're not, well, most of us are not monks or nuns that go to them on, you know, it's not about that. I mean, we still live here, but how can we keep sane without falling into that? And partly is going back to that state of mind like the sky, where the clouds are there, the birds are there, the sounds are there, all is there, but you don't have to grasp it, you can just let it come, let it stay, and let it go. And what you do with meditation, this word gom in Tibetan and related to com is familiarity, familiarity to that spacious mind that you always come back to, and you let these things come, stay, and go, and that that you get familiar with is actually what will also go beyond your Airbnb.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Yeah, again, very well said, because there's there's been many historical periods where small groups of people had to keep the light shining in the midst of all the darkness, right? Yeah, and then you know, but you know, parents are also in states of fear of what kind of world are their children inheriting, you know.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Yeah, and and I think again, keep on, you know, it's interesting to even hear how some people don't even think that love is good, right? I mean, they almost they hear love and unity and they hear as politic. It's like really when when was it politicized, you know? Uh so uh so I think it's it's it's important to remember what what are your values, you know, and um and uh as a parent, as you're saying, you know, teaching your children what what are your values? What what are you standing for? And um, and again, the children are not necessarily following what we say, uh, but at least it's good that we they they they know our stance. They can make that they can make their choices.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Great. I don't know if you saw the movie that has this great title, All the Light We Cannot See about Germany in the war.

SPEAKER_04 57:38

I I didn't see the movie, but it's a great title.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Yeah, and there's a great line in it, like real standout line. That again sounds very Buddhist to me. Uh, because they're asking one of the characters who's been traumatized but needs to participate in the underground resistance, and they ask him, Are you okay? And his like, are you okay? And his answer was it's not a time for okay or not okay.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

Yeah, and the light is always there. You know, there was a singer in Argentina, actually, Marilina Ross. She has this beautiful song, Aunque no lo veamos, el sol siempre está, even if we don't see it, the sun is always there. So in a way, don't forget your conscious awareness is always there. Or as my teacher used to say, I remember I was translating for him in Mexico, and he there were like 500 people, and he said, you know, you're all enlightened, you're all Buddhas, and then you pause. You just haven't realized it. But you all have that capacity, it's not that someone will come and put it in you, you already have it, so just go and discover it.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Okay, I'll uh an hour goes fast. I can leave the closing blessing to you because you mentioned that you do one of those.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

So yeah, so I I have uh something that I did for my kids when they were kids, um, that I like to share, and particularly the part that they added. So I pray that all my actions of body, of speech, and of mind be for the benefit of all beings. May all of my actions be as good as possible, and none of my actions be bad, and may all beings be happy, may all beings be happy, may all beings be happy. And my kid said, May all beings be happy, may all beings be happy, may all beings be happy, and then because usually we said this at night, we would hug and say goodnight.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

So beautiful, beautiful. That's my as you as you say, so shall it be. Thank you.