SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to Skull Portal. Exploring Psycho Spiritual Horizons with your hosts, Cedric Speyer and Deanna Magel. Cedric is an author and therapist who developed the interview guidance model and is a pathfinder in the psycho-spiritual realm. Deanna created the essential skull care model, a model suitable for therapists, coaches, and healers. The monthly episodes of Skull Portals feature guests sharing insights from their personal paths and professional practices. Thank you for tuning in for the Skull Talk with all kinds of trailblazing teachers and guides, as Cedric, Deanna, and guests explore new evolutionary landscapes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

And she's a transformational educator and founder of Gratitude Training. And has a book called Source Movement and Creator of Wire Rewired for Peace. Developing the Gratitude Equation. We're gonna find out more about those. But I like to start with an opening invocation that goes like this May the spirit flow freely through our gathering, allowing it to be both energizing and edifying. And part of our flexible structure is an opening quote, and I also have a little verse from E. Cummings. The quote speaking to the theme is if the only prayer you said was thank you, that would be enough. And that's Meister Eichhart, the German mystic from the 13th century. But I just opened this book of poems by E. Cummings, and there's this really beautiful verse. It's about love, but you could substitute gratitude easily. As he says, love is the voice under all silences. The hope which has no opposite in fear. The strength so strong mere force is feebleness. The truth more first than sun, more last than star. So you could go through it with gratitude as the voice under all silences. Beautiful. Yeah, it's a welcome Joe.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

And by now people know gratitude is a theme. But you've done a lot with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

My whole life, pretty much.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

And Deanna has a question on the subject of your whole life.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Yeah, um, in an hour or so. Um so my first question is always about what was the spiritual or psycho-spiritual drive behind you ending up doing your vocation and being who you are.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Okay. Uh well, I'll I'll say this, um, since we're talking about gratitude too. I grew up in a family in Sweden that um used joy and gratitude, but more of a survival mechanism. So I was introduced to, you know, like whether it was through humor or through like, look how great everything is, look how good we have it. But it was, it was this almost like a veil to almost cover the alcoholism and the drama and the pain. Um, but as a child, you know, you you don't really know the drama and the pain. And so I really kind of started like naturally, I was kind of grateful a lot, and I could always see the good in things, right? Um I I also um then when as I as I grew up, I was very it was very important for me to be liked by people and to seek approval. So that was like, you know, I just want to give you a little bit of who I was prior to the the bigger awakening, you know. Um I had I I was highly intelligent in school, I did very well, success. Uh, you know, I I was very good at being right, and belonging meant a lot to me. And so I would do anything to to have just joy around me and people liking me. So I became like the class clown and that kind of thing. Um, and then what happened was I went to the US when I was uh 20 and I went to go to college. And so the first uh thing that kind of changed this for me was I fell in love with a woman. And it was one of those things where I had to really pick um authenticity over approval, right? Awareness over fitting in, uh, because I knew that this would not be accepted in my family. I knew my friends, everyone in Sweden, all this. So I just I was really struggling internally. Um, so that was like my first step into just kind of coming into who uh I was to become and standing in my power and standing in my authentic self. Um then after that, I moved to California. This was in Virginia. I moved to California and um, you know, I lived my life really not super aware, right? Like I was running from something constantly. And then at one point I moved to Florida and I ended up in this transformational training. Uh, and it was one of those large awareness group trainings, and it was for me, it was the moment I walked through the door, it was almost like a bullshit detector. Like it was like all the lights went on almost, right? When I walked through. And I I had I felt like I had to leave all of my stuff behind and walk into this room. And it it was like a pressure cooker for me. And it had me realize that I had been living my entire life very left-brained, like mathematics, in my masculine and like go, go, go. And in that go, go, go, I was really running over a lot of people, especially in relationships. And and I also saw that I had this creative side. Now, mind you, like this wasn't really, this was still very heady. This wasn't really my my my my body, my soul awakening. So I just want to bring uh bring you there. Um, and so I married this creative side with my my, so my right brain with my left brain, sort of my spiritual side, more emotional intelligence with this other more certainty and and structured side, and it really expanded the world for me. And so I decided to continue this course for four months. And when I was in the course in the leadership program part of it, I was traveling to the US, no, to Sweden from the US, because my brother had a birthday party. And on my way back, I was at an airport in New York, in New York airport, and I was running late to my gate. And so I'm I'm running through the airport as fast as I can, and I would come up to the gate and I can't see this older man in front of me. And I literally run him over with my body. And based on still who I was, uh and in the world that I lived in, people would get really mad if you did that. And so I kind of braced myself and was like, oh my God, like I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And he gets up with this huge smile on his face, and he goes, No worries. He goes, I bet you do this all the time, like just like peace and love, and and I even get chills as I speak about it because I remember this moment so clearly. And and it was like he interrupted my entire worldview in that moment. He showed me that it didn't have to be the way that I had it. And I was so grateful at that point that I wanted to give him something. And I started reaching in my pocket, like, what are you gonna do? Give him a dollar, you know what I mean? Like there's nothing, but I just felt like I need to give him something. And so, of course, I didn't have anything. And he he walks away, and uh, he was with his daughter and his and his um his daughter and his granddaughter, and we were at the same gate. So, of course, we end up on the same plane as well. But I'm sitting in in the airplane and I'm looking out the window, and in that moment, I was like, what if we actually had something like a tangible object that we could give people in those moments of awakening, those moments of interruption, those moments of gratitude and appreciation. And I came up with this idea because at the time I had been a computer consultant for a very long time. I come from a family of inventors, so we're always, always inventing things. And I was like, what if we had a coin? And I'm like, oh my God, a token of appreciation. And so in that moment, I decided I was gonna create these trackable coins, physical coins that people could give each other and then pay them forward as you know, just to spread gratitude in the world. And I was super excited about it. And uh I get off the plane and he was there, and I run up to him, and I'm just like, I mean, this is like in 2005 or no, 2000, not 2000, sorry. Um, where are we at? Yeah, 2000 something, I 2001 or something. And I run it up to him and I'm like, oh my God, like thank you so much. You you what happened there? Like, we're gonna change the world, and I'm gonna create gratitude all over the world. And he's just like, okay, lady, right? So so, but I was able to get his his phone number and his address. It turned out he lived an hour north of me in Florida. So because I was in this leadership program, I was I I had people really standing for me, like, well, you this is you say this is what you want. We're gonna we're gonna make sure this happens, and this is not one of your other ideas that you always have, right? And so I a year to the date after bumping into him, I had created a tracking website, I had minted the tokens, and I I drove up to his house unannounced, and I gave him token number one. And I was able to sit with this man, he was like 80-something years old. He's he's now died, but uh sit with him and give him this token and really say thank you for making a difference in my day, but thank you for making a difference in the world because I knew where I was going. And um, that day I started something that I called a giving year, where I just decided that I was gonna give a coin away every day for 365 days, starting with that one, uh, and then documented on YouTube. And uh, and I did, and that was one of the most craziest journeys because that's how so I I now sit here. This I sat there with this awakening of like, I know what my purpose is, I know internally that this is like my no matter what, this is my commitment, this is my life calling, and all of it. And then throwing myself into this giving year where daily commitment and grinding and like finding people to be grateful for, and then documenting on on you know with a video camera and all that really tested me. Because, you know, we we all have those days where we're like, yeah, I'm gonna go to the gym every day, and then you don't after two weeks, right? So my commitment was way more um I what did you say, more important than my my conversation and my racket about it that I had. And so I did it. And some days were really hard, but it was like it was a learning thing, and I didn't know what was going to come out of it. Um, but then over time, over this year, abundance started flowing, and I really got holy crap, like it's not just a saying that gratitude is the foundation for all abundance. I was living it. My bank accounts started going, my my relationships were better, my family relationships were better. It was just like everything, it was just abundance, abundance, abundance. And it's it's like gradually as I was living in gratitude every day and also in committed action. And so um after that, uh the do you have any questions? I know I keep just talking.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

We also asked is there a watershed moment, but you tried on it. That was a beautiful watershed moment. Yeah, yeah, and go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

I think for what I would want to point out to the people that are listening is that you are so eloquently able to timeline that threshold moment. Like you and I think sometimes we live our lives so fast and furious we we don't take time to reflect on our own watershed moments. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for the overview.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

And so then I was anyone can jump in in the chat for comments or questions along the way. And we want to get into more of your philosophy of gratitude because it's very interesting. It's like goes further than most people would know on face value being thankful.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

If you could say about that, because you know, we we our audience usually wants to know how does this translate to counseling and therapy.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yeah, I I totally understand that. Well, what one of the things that I will say is that, like, so yes, uh, you know, we have tools, right, around gratitude. There are tools around gratitude, like you know, gratitude journal. Um uh you could do all kinds of different gratitudes. I personally think those are great ways to start for people that don't even know where to start. But for me, what gratitude has become, it has become a perspective of life, it's become a way of being, right? And so obviously, to train that, there has to be a shift for people in that that almost like that moment I had with with Don Worm, Don Worms was his name, uh, the older gentleman at the airport, there has to be there has to be some sort of awakening or some sort of shift that has people be willing, be willing to actually change the perspective and change the story. And sometimes it can be through examples. So if you're if you if I I'm not a therapist, but if I if I coach people, sometimes I have to reframe it for them, right? Reframe it like how could we say this in another way? And an example would be I I remember this so clearly. I my my wife at the time had been uh gone in India for three months at a at a uh yoga teacher training thing, and I could only get a call every Sunday for 10 minutes. That was the only time she could call. And I was with my friend, and this one Sunday, for some reason I had my phone on silent and I missed the call. And I go, Oh man, I missed the call. And he goes, Oh, that sucks. And I'm like, No, this is amazing. She left a voicemail. I get to listen to it all week now, right? It was like that quick, right? And and it's it's it once we when we learn that there's always a silver lining, when we learn that there's always something to be grateful for, even just grateful for the lessons sometime, right? We slowly begin to to change the context that we're being, because we're all we're all like uh human beings are like a walking context, like we're a walking environment, and who we are being is what generates everything we're seeing, right? So we can't change anything outside of us, but we can certainly change things within, which affects the outside, which affects the outside, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

Do you know the whole hoopono prayer?

SPEAKER_01 17:03

The I I have never practiced it, but I I I have heard about it and I have heard that it's very effective. That's all I know.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Yeah, yeah. It's almost proof of what you're saying. Because you know, you can pass like a couple arguing on the street, and if you remember, you say the simple prayer, and you look back and you see that their vibe has changed, you know, that they're wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

That's amazing. Yeah, it is because it and if you if you look at it from like a really uh I guess spiritual context, yeah. If you're actually creating everything that you see, then you have also then generated those two people. You've created those two people standing there by your creation arguing, so it's not like they existed before you arguing, and then you came and fixed it, right? It's all you in your dream.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

That is the philosophy behind the oh, it is okay, got it. Beautiful to bring in the devil's advocate question. So, how does it apply to like horrendous experience of which we're witnessing all over the world? Like the extreme suffering, cruelty, you know, the the opposite, which is the inhumanity and the cruelty that people can unleash on each other.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Well, I think that the the first thing we have to do, and this I think this is very, very difficult for people, is to actually take accountability and responsibility for it on some level. Because over time, we have all generated this soup, this environment. Because the environment is we're co-creating it now. It doesn't mean that you know I'm out warring right now, but if I'm warring in my family, or I'm warring with the barista at Starbucks, or I'm warring when I'm driving my car, I am generating that sort of environment and context. And in that context, war can exist, right? So unless until we can can account for that, there is no way for us to create something different because we can't stand as responsible for the future if we're like, yeah, I'm responsible for how I'm gonna create it now. I create everything except for that thing back there. We can't do it that way, right? We have to be able to account for not like blame or burden or or but really account for it. Like, okay, I have been addicted to my cell phone for many years, and I can see how that has led to kids being on their phones and now led to this and led to this. And I can't think that I'm just gonna switch and change it back in one second. So we're sitting in the pressure cooker of what we have generated as a whole, right? And until we can, you know, resolve that within ourselves, it's gonna be difficult for us to do anything about it. We're gonna stay victims to it. And it's very difficult not to be a victim to it today because it is pretty horrendous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

Well, and one of the things I you I teach about gratitude is it's very connected to the heart chakra, if you're familiar with the chakra system. And so gratitude, even acting as if, even if it's just a practice you're not used to doing yet, but setting up your day or your meditation or your daily spiritual practice, starting with gratitude, means that at the heart level, we are able to give and receive. And so why I'm saying that is it resonates with what you're saying about it's all about what we're putting out there.

unknown 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

And if we want to shift that, there needs to be some awareness and some healing, if you will, on that astral plane.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yes, yes. And and you know what, like I would like to believe that it could be a very quick shift once enough people. I mean, some people talk about critical mass or the 2% or 3% or whatever it could be. I like to believe that if enough of us come from gratitude, joy, and love and and and begin to uh ripple effect that out into the world, that that that the shift will happen on the plane you were talking about very quickly. That's what I like to believe, you know, and and and I'm sticking to it because, you know, like I don't want this to be a long, longer drawn out process that it feels like it is right now. Now, we also have to to look at now that I'm talking about quickness. How quick, you know, data and AI and all, how quick everything is happening, right? All the system, all the all the physical stuff is happening very quickly. And we're almost kind of behind now. Like the humanity and our our brains are not able to even comprehend the quickness and at what pace things are happening. And so I think that there is something that has to have us uh like a catalyst for us to really begin to focus on our nervous system, regulating, being kind, all of that. It has to come very quickly because that is the one thing that's gonna have it be able to. I mean, humanity is not gonna be sustainable if we don't.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

And speaking of which, how do you see the co in co-creation as too colourful?

SPEAKER_01 23:01

I love these questions because I don't I don't have answers until you ask the question. So how do I see the co in co-creation? Well, I would say that at the very core, we are all playing out the same, like we're all one, we're all in the same movie, we're all like God, we are all atoms and cells and whatever, right? Um, so the co-creating is that we are we we can affect the system, right? As an individual, I can affect the entire system because I'm part of the system. And so the question is am I gonna sit over here and just make my own little ripples, or am I gonna try to create a better ripple with other people that are now co-creating with me? And so on on a bot, like on a base level, I would say it's it's energy.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Agree.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

So we'll spare they'll spare you the theology level.

unknown 24:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

By the way, what was the original training you went to? Like just the ground level context.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Oh, uh, it was called Summit Education, but it was uh a Lifespring training that was uh so like the Werner Earhart shooed off into Lifespring, and then I shot it off after I had my awakening and realized that the way that the training was and the way that the systems around the training was was not up to par with where the consciousness were at the time. And so I sort of shifted it up. And rather than the dominate control model, I went into inspire create model. And so it shifted a lot of how the training was delivered. And I will still say I had a lot of people come from that other context, and it was difficult to shift that. So there were still some of the old flair in the gratitude training that I now, well, due to COVID, we had to shut down, but that I now like has been have been able to really stand in my own power and be like, no, that's that's that's not that doesn't work anymore. Like people, no, people don't need people to be like um yelling at you, like they need to be handheld in a different way, and and there's compassion and there's other things that people are looking for today, especially after COVID, that was so like apparent to me.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Can you do sorry? Go ahead. No, go ahead. Like for the audience again, can you do a brief history? Brief, because it's a big feel about how it evolved. Because I'm I remember Est that turned into the forum that turned into life string. So, you know, there's a lineage there that I and some of uh the our therapists like would have clients who've been to a weekend and it's controversial, some come damaged by it by what you were just saying.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I I'll I'll give you like a a little brief. So yeah, Werner Earhart was essentially, I would say that he's a little bit of the godfather, but there was a lot of people that had kind of set the stage for him uh as well. Um, but he was the one that really created the first, um, I think back then even it was called the forum or something, which I think Est.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

It was called Est, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:38

It was called Est, right. And but I think the very yeah, it was called Est. And I don't know what they called the actual first part of the training, but there was also a few parts to it. And and it was very controversial, and there were there were um some things were shut down, some things, uh some other people that were working for him took some of the work and did their own spin-offs of it, and it was really kind of messy. And then he had a messy uh internal like family life that people then started judging, and he ended up fleeing, fleeing the country. He went to England. I think he's still in England now. But out of that, there was uh John Hanley. Well, John Hanley created Lifespring, and he's the one that created the trainings that are very similar to what I had, still based on a lot of the same principles and distinctions that that came from Est. And the people that were left, and and I know Werner Eric helped them, and I think he's still involved, uh, started landmark. And so there was landmark and there was Lifespring. Now the landmark version was more uh cerebral, it was and so there was it was drawing more business people and more like committed action, and we're gonna create success and that. And then the Lifespring model was more heartfelt and messy, right? This that's the one I picked. Uh, but it was it was the forum.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

The forum. Did that come in somewhere? Because I remember James' name.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

The forum was the is the part it's the first part one of uh of landmark. It's called the forum.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

And so they had the forum, and we had uh what back then was called the basic. So it was the forum and the basic. Those were the two like four or five day like introduction to this work. And then I don't, I believe that they also have an advanced now. Uh I know they do actually in in the landmark version. Lifespring had uh an advanced course too. And the Lifespring advanced course, I've never done the the landmark one, but the Lifespring one uh was very like it was like breaking through every single thing that stopped you in your whole life in five days. So very intense. And I will say this after having sort of a version of this as my own training. Um, it's not for everyone. But the enrollment pressure that was put on in both of these uh lineages was like everyone has to do it, everyone gets to go. This is gonna change the world. And if you don't go, you're bad. And it so it ended up being very culty in that way. And that's why I think for some people, uh, maybe some people that maybe have a uh a nervous system that needs some like calming before they go into something like this. There would be people in trainings that would have nervous, like like uh what's that called? Yeah, like psychic breaks and stuff like that. And so uh I can see the controversy, right? And I was very careful when I was running gratitude training that that that's not what we wanted. However, there are a lot of people in the world, and there's some people that come in and find things that are still wrong, and then they go research what happened in the past, and then we get a bad rap, right? Um, and and and and then like I said, I I think that we're in a different different time and place now um where different methods are are working better. But I think back then I think it was very effective trainings, though, very effective trainings.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah, it's the intensity uh that's controversial, especially with therapists who have a lot invested in longer-term work. And I believe it's necessary, and that it's the very idea that you're gonna do something in a weekend is right suspect, right? And then depending on the intensity, um yeah, it is is it is suspect.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

And you know, what's crazy is that that that like some of the things that I've seen just in in our training rooms back back then, I mean, we haven't done them since uh since COVID, but I have seen people stop stuttering in five days. I I mean I've seen things that like I can't you can't even begin to believe the kind of breakthrough and awareness and awakening. So, what what's possible in there is a level of awakening um that can actually shift the human being completely, you know, from trauma and things like that. But that's not gonna work for everyone, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Right unless the danger clinically, you need outcome studies like six months later, a year later, five years later, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:24

We didn't have time for that. Those spiritual awakenings or those epiphany moments can happen in a workshop like that or happen looking at a sunset. It's different for everybody, exactly. And and so what I appreciate is that you're saying it was clear that this isn't for everybody, and the the shame and guilt that comes with being pressured, right? Like just putting that layer on before you go into that experience. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Yeah, yeah, and then and then it creates it's it's not really sustainable because then it creates um you know an army of people um that are in this new box. It was all about coming out of the box or getting out of your box, right? That was the whole training, but then you're coming out in this new box. Now I'm in the box of the gratitude training, or I'm the box of landmark, or you know, and you're still in a box and and and and and judging and people that are different or doing not doing it or what have you. And so, yeah, it was very, it's very tricky. Looking back at it, it's very tricky, and it was a very tricky place for me to be. And I at I had to early on um make a choice whether I was gonna be a trainer or whether I was gonna um uh run the company. And I chose to that I wanted to run the company because I'm a very much a people person and I love people and all, you know, the fun and all that. So I was able to do do that better because a trainer would always have to have like some sort of uh hierarchy or something, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Um because people would look up to them in it like God almost, right? And so that that was not me. Now I've been able to train the online. I do the Rewired for Peace is a completely reworked version just that I have created that I am training, uh, that's online and that doesn't have, I mean, that that flair is completely gone. Now, are the tools and the powerful distinctions are there? Absolutely, because they are life-changing, but they're not life-changing if you're gonna shove it down someone's throat.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Right. So I just thought of a question. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

I was just saying you've created a more collaborative egalitarian process. Yeah. That's yeah, which honors the idea that energy is everywhere and in everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

So I just thought of a question for which you can just think of an answer, which is what's the difference between you and Tony Robins?

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Oh, I probably dance better. Um I I mean, I would I would probably put myself more in a category of like Marianne Williamson if I were to compare compare myself. Not that like I look up to her, like I I I love the way that she speaks and whatever. And I've I'm I'm not saying I'm her at all, like I think she's fantastic. But um I I mean I think that he has valuable tools for people, um, but it is kind of similar to the rah-rah and let's do it in a weekend and and all that. And I just actually my my I'm starting a new project on gratitude.com with uh so my business partner in that just went for the first time to Tony Robbins and he's done gratitude training and a bunch of work, and he actually said that the first two, three days, two days he was like, but then he got all into it and and said it was super valuable. So I don't know, I haven't been. But the guy is a marketing genius, that's for sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

And I do think that he I think that he still walks the talk. I think he lives it, and I think he he, you know, I think he has a good good intention behind it. I do. I don't know him, but I'm choosing that story.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

So uh can you say a little bit more about that Rewired for Peace project?

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah, so so Rewired for Peace. So now I've I've done about 14 or 15 of them since I moved it. First, when I so so when COVID hit, I lost the entire gratitude training, the whole project I've been working on for 10 years. We had over 20,000 students, and then um so this kind of brings us to my next like big moment. So in 2017, um I went to a I went to a vipassana silent retreat, and I thought that that was gonna love it, but for some reason my creative mind was just like, I'm going crazy here. So my daughter decided to come six weeks early uh to be born, and so I had to leave two days early, which I was kind of happy to do, but that's that's another story. So, so I had a premature baby in NICU, and at the very same time, um one of the students uh who was bipolar should not have been in this class, right? Uh had to had a set of twins that were that were 19 and they were still in the leadership program. Well, I had to kick him out because he was causing trouble on the team, and I realized that he wasn't well. And the moment I told him that I'm gonna give you your money back and you know, bless you, um, he hung up and he said, the fun has just begun. And he began to cyberbully me for two years, like to a criminal level, like pictures of my house. I mean, it was just like crazy. Um, and uh, and so I have a baby in NICU, he's going crazy, and then three weeks later, Hurricane Irma comes to Florida and tears off the roof of our 15,000 square foot training center. And there's water standing in every training room. And I'm just like, okay, where's the gratitude here? Right. Uh so it was like everything was just upheaval, upheaval after upheaval. And I I went into total doer mode. I was able to like handle it all, and I would even be, I would even say with grace and gratitude when I look back. But it was a really hard journey. And when we finally just I finally started seeing the light, and we started having people, we had a brand new center uh redone after a few years and everything. We had been in this new center for just a couple of months, and people were coming to the trainees, and I was like, oh, and I I had let go of my business partner who was someone that shouldn't have been a trainer in this kind of environment. Um I uh uh COVID came. And we, you know, we had 100, 150 people in the room. We were the first ones that had to shut down. And I knew in that moment, I knew that this is it, because I can't read I can't move this online. Like we have this, it's too big. I have costs of 250,000 in expenses with all these employees and trainers every month. I'm underwater in one month, and so I shut down completely and uh had a community that was all upset about it and uh handled all like bankruptcies, all lost. We lost our house in Lighthouse Point, and then I called my dad and I said I need a place to land, and we moved to Spain. So I took my my wife and my two kids and we moved to Spain. And that was the thing here because I got here and there was a part of me that knew I needed to just stop because there was a panic part of me that's like, okay, now I need to do this, I need to create money, I need to. And but there was a part of me that's like, no, you need to give yourself a year, you need to give yourself a year, you need to give yourself a year. And eventually I listened to it and I pretty much stared at a wall for a year, other than taking care of the kids and doing the stuff. But I was just like, I need to integrate this, I need to understand what has happened. And I always thought if I lost gratitude training, I would be fine, I would just do something else, but it was really my baby. I realized it was my baby, and I was like, okay, I need to grieve this. And then after about a year, like inspiration started popping back and like little things started happening, and then I was like, well, maybe I shouldn't be so against taking these trainings online. And I began to create, and I began, and being an ex-computer consultant kind of helped me too, because Zoom and this world and graphics and all that stuff. I'm like, I can make this experiential enough online that they will have the same breakthroughs and the same lessons. And I created it, and now I've made it into six weeks and it's two hours a week. And um there's a little bit of homework more like presenting things during the week. So instead of doing this thing in four days, they can now be with a distinction of trust for an entire week, right? And then can be with the distinction of commitment or courage or whatever it is we're calling for an entire week. So it actually what I'm seeing is it creates way more long-lasting results in a very loving and safe and connected and grateful environment. And so I did it. So now I've been running that for a few years and I love it. I love it, and the people love it, and um I might consider creating it some other courses. Like I I told you I'm creating the gratitude equation, which is I'm very excited about that too.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

Yeah, it kind of overlaps with what online events does, which is you know, do they it's not a we have something a little different, unusual, which is a podcast. But within online events, you run programs and trainings.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

We uh we can put a link to like it goes in the library. This episode goes in the library, and there can be a link to your training for anyone who's interested in following up with it.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Amazing. Yes, beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 41:44

I I completely resonate with your with your moments. I've had similar moments, different storyline, different business, different, but very similar.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

So yeah. See, we are all one. We're all the same. Now that the the last part, because you know, this journey, this psychospiritual evolvement, it's not like it's one moment and you're done and you're cooked, you know, it's like it's a constant. And and the last one has been for me um finding the courage to um to leave my my marriage. And it was one of those things where I was staying, I was staying in the marriage for the kids for a very long time. I was doing it for the kids, and then at one point I saw something in my kids' eyes, and I'm like, wow, I need to leave for the kids. And in that moment, um, you know, there was there was this level of courage that I have never felt before, where it was like, it is time to go, and no matter what, there was no looking back, and I was able to do it with love and from love and just like handling it all and making sure that they're okay and they are doing amazing today. But what happened from doing that, because I wasn't just running around doing everything and pleasing everyone anymore, I was like, I'm doing this for them and for me. There has been over the last six months this creeping, you know. We I I I do talk about this in my training a lot about self-worth and you know, all the stuff and how related it is to integrity and being your word and living life in integrity with your authentic self. And now I had that experience on a really deep level for myself. And this this self love and self worth just started creeping in on a level that I have never felt before. And it is so exciting because it's almost like being in love. Again, but it's like with myself, but you know what I mean? But it but it's the same feeling, it's like waking up and feeling completely content, feeling completely like no matter what's going on outside of me, like I'm here. Like I'm here, I'm solid, I know who I am, and that I just know is gonna be the catapult for whatever next I'm going to be creating in the world. And I I'm I'm lit up about it.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

Yeah, it's very well said. And see, even online in a Zoom meeting, I can feel it in your presence. I can feel the sub the the what are they the integrity, the substantiality.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Yeah. Well, and you made a choice to be authentic to yourself. Yeah. You know, because I as a therapist, I've heard many times I'm staying for the kids. And you had a moment where you realized that maybe that wasn't being true to yourself. Exactly. And maybe not the best for them either.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Right, because if I'm not true to myself and in integrity, then I'm not a good mother either. Then I then they're seeing someone just faking it and doing it and whatever, and then they're gonna end up in that same loop. And uh there had to be uh there had to be like a there had to be like a snap, there had to be a break.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

Then it's all about the best interest of the kids, and when you hit that point like you did, then there doesn't have to be guilt about it because in that situation it was their best interest, yeah, as well as yours. You know, in our world, we we use the term alignment for integrity, like first soul ego alignment, so they're not at odds, and mind, body, spirit alignment.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

It's another way of saying integrity, yeah, and I see it now, you know, like they talk about conscious parenting, right? Like I see it in them, I see them starting to thrive and love themselves and have joy and connect with each other, like on a whole different level, and it's because now they see what they were supposed to see from me, right?

SPEAKER_04 46:11

They see, you know, it's I think for children it's much better to have two separated adults who are working on their stuff than a couple that's working out of dysfunction, yeah, um for the sake of the children.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Yeah, yeah. Carl Jung's theory of the shadow?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Um fill me in. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Okay. Well he actually predicted the state the world's in, because he said if we don't integrate our shadow, which is the split-off part of ourselves that we don't accept when we're not integrated. And it can it happens personally and collectively. He actually one of the last things he did before he died was predict that you know, 50 years from his death, you know, the world would start exploding because of the the um projections, you know, and right, because the first thing you do when you don't integrate your shadow dark side is you go after others and they're the evil ones. Right. You just have to go on social media and see how many people are calling the others evil, like you're evil, no, you're the evil ones.

SPEAKER_04 47:36

Right, and then we have a whole collective of victims, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

So his whole therapy was to resolve that on the personal level, and like you said in the beginning, to bring the two sides together, like the right brain, left brain. I call it like the horizontal and vertical dimensions of life, and the crossroads being where the action is.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah, in in the in the gratitude trainee, we we we had a word for uh sort of uh kind of like the egoic part, or sometimes like our shadow side, right? We we called it the egoic part, and we called it our nerd. And uh the idea was to be like, I am you know a self-sabotaging uh judgmental, blah blah blah nerd, and I love myself, right? And and the the point is that you know we're we're we're human beings and we're gonna have this, and I'll say shadow side now or shadow, we're gonna have this egoic uh part of us. And if we don't learn to love it, then which would be your word integrated, then we would be out of alignment, essentially. And for me, the way it shows up is I um I feel like I almost um it's almost like I I leave my body and watch myself, especially when I'm in that, in my nerd, right? In my in my shit. And it's almost like I can watch myself and I'll be like, oh, here she goes again. She's so cute. She just wants to watch, she wants to binge watch Netflix again. Let her do it. And then it'll be a time it's like, okay, it's time to go. Let's go, right? But but to because I have beat myself up my entire life for not being perfect, you know? And I'm at a place now where it's like there is so much uh perfectness in the imperfections. And once I got to that place, it's just like I'm just like a fun human being. And I and and and when you also can do that, then you can also apologize and clean up a lot quicker. So if I accidentally say something that I shouldn't have said, I can immediately go, oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Like it's that quick now because I'm not ashamed of it anymore.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Right. That's key, yeah. Because if you're ashamed, and we see this in therapy, the shame feeds into the next cycle. Yeah, and that's what happens with abuse, you know. The the spouse comes in a state of shame. I'm sorry, it'll never happen again. That actually is the beginning of the next cycle, yeah. You know, so yeah, it's a very good point.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

What call, I mean, like it's it's amazing like how how we're even able to function as a race. I mean, we are so complicated. We aren't able to complicated. And you know, and like, and I think at some point, like, you know, like you know, systems were built and laws were put in place and you know, social norms were built, and then suddenly it's just like a we're gonna shake it up, and now it's like everybody's just running around with like their head, their head cut off, you know. And uh and and how do we how do we how do we scoop everyone up? It's almost like you know, we we we had had people sometimes in the training, they would they would leave the room, and we always made sure I called it we we have to have a net outside, like a net of people that just love them. Like, are you okay? Like what's coming up, right? It's almost like the world needs this big net right now to be like it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. You just need to stop, you know, and breathe for a minute.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

We have, I think we're at like eight minutes. Yeah, eight minutes to to get to the to get to the action piece of this for the people that are watching that I think most people are familiar with with gratitude as a a starting place for uh reflection, but is there an actionable exercise or um some little tidbit you could give people?

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Well, I actually I do have I do have something that that um that I can actually give you, and you could put the link for them because I just created a uh seven-day gratitude challenge, and it really like and it's it's it's on YouTube, but it you have to have the link to see it. Um and it's it really gives you the tools on a daily basis, and it's like you know, gratitude in action, gratitude in service, you know, and and it goes through each of them, and that's something that I would uh love to to to give to your listeners if they if they want. Um, I haven't done anything with it yet. I created it for a platform that is not even up yet, so it's kind of like a sneaky little thing, but I would love to share that as one thing. Um, but as far as you know, like if I think if I think about, you know, in in this in the setting of therapy and how to cultivate gratitude for a client, um I think that sometimes it's not even about talking about gratitude, sometimes it's about beginning to shift the perspective. Is there another way you could look at it? Is there another way you could see it? Is there another way? And then as they say there are other ways, then if you notice that it one has gratitude in it or or hope, or you know, something that takes them, you know, um upstream, like um Abraham Hicks would say, Um, then then maybe identify the moment. Like this is because that's more of an awakening moment that that that will land gratitude on a deeper level than hey, get up and and and journal, uh do a gratitude journal every day. Now, I will still say with people that have you know no access or no thoughts of gratitude, that still is a good way. Three things at bedtime, three things in the morning. Yeah I mean it will start your day, and and like you said, Diana, like sometimes even fake it till you make it, right? Fake it till you make it, because when it comes to gratitude, it actually still does the work. So you might not feel it for the first few mornings, but then suddenly it's gonna be like, oh, why am I feeling a little happier today? Like it's gonna start sinking in.

SPEAKER_03 54:21

What you said touches on the solution focused method that's uh you know it's been trending through through years. I don't know if you've heard of that. Like solution approach to counseling, which comes out of positive psychology, what's right with people, not what's wrong with them. But part of that method is what you described, like the the questions like in this impossible predicament that you're describing, what gives you hope? Is there anything that gives you hope? And steering that way, you know, and yeah, yeah. And if this situation was somehow for your benefit, just imagine, like somehow for your benefit, what would that benefit be? What could that benefit be from this really painful situation? So those are solution-focused questions, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

And I would also say here's something that might be really effective is to end a session with, okay, before we go, three things you're grateful for, right? To sort of lock it in, because they've probably spewed for an hour about how horrible their life is, right? And just be like, oh shit, now I have to find something grateful for. Now they're leaving the session with this. I I've I've gone through it, I've done the work, and I can still see the light.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

And I think some people get hung up because they think what we need to be grateful for is something big. Right. And sometimes it can just be the simplest, like I'm grateful I have clean water to drink.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Yeah, like yeah, so you know, also speaking of closing the session, let's just do it. We can we can do three with the three of us, like one, two, three, like one each. And anyone in the can do it in the chat too.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

Well, I did one. I'm grateful for the clean water. Is it I'm grateful that my my cat was able to see a vet yesterday and is feeling better. And I'm grateful for the beautiful landscape I have before me that I can view while I'm in this podcast. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

I'm grateful uh that I work from home so that I could care for my sick child today. I am grateful for you two for inviting me here and be able to have this amazing conversation. Uh and I'm grateful that I trusted myself that there was nothing to do or be other than showing up today. And I feel like that was the right move.

SPEAKER_03 56:58

Okay, and I'm grateful for the podcast and everything else that brings me out of my comfort zone and opens up like new landscapes and for guests like Joe and um for all the love that's you know flowing towards me even when it doesn't look that way. Beautiful. Okay, so uh we it brings us to the closing blessing. You know, without without worrying about the time, we always end up like right within the hour. Like magically.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

It's perfect.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

So the closing blessing is may unconditional love emanate from our hearts, allowing healing light to permeate our planetary home, encircling the earth out into the cosmos. That's your mission to And so it is.

SPEAKER_04 57:58

Thank you, Susannah. Lovely. I'm grateful you gave me this opportunity to listen to this profound practice. Yes.