Soul Portals: Exploring Psychospiritual Horizons
An hour’s glimpse into the visions of teachers and guides who inspire others to live in a bigger story of soul purpose.
Many individuals seeking coaching, counselling, psychotherapy, or spiritual guidance have a feeling that life holds more potential than their current circumstances suggest. Aside from the basics of maintaining sanity and well-being in the 21st century, we can envision a better world and more personal fulfillment. Yet amidst the tumult of modern life, where are the examples of humanity's best qualities?
In this podcast series, Cedric Speyer and DeeAnna Nagel engage in conversations with psychospiritual trailblazers, amplifying their voices of wisdom and exploring their unique perspectives on human wholeness. Through their sacred journeys and professional endeavors, these individuals are ‘portals’ through which we see wider vistas of the soul journey. While their names might not grace network news or mainstream podcasts, their insights introduce invaluable aspects of ‘soul work’.
Soul work (and play) transcends the mere amalgamation of mental and emotional well-being, optimum personality traits, and worldly life skills. It delves deeper, calling forth spiritual capacities at the growing edge of our life's purpose. It allows individual talents and personal pathways to converge with what the world needs. It empowers us to heed the inner call, that paradoxically reaches beyond ourselves.
Join us monthly for an inspiring hour with those contributing to our personal and collective growth in profound ways.
Your Soul Portals hosts:
Cedric M. Speyer, M.A., M.Ed., RP, is an author, Registered Psychotherapist, and presently a mentor to coaches, counsellors, and therapists. He pioneered E-counselling in Canada, overseeing 100K online cases before establishing InnerView Guidance International (IGI). The vision of IGI brings together the historically separate domains of mental health and spiritual awareness in a new synthesis for the helping professions. https://www.innerviewguidance.com/
DeeAnna Merz Nagel, D.Th., LPC, LMHC, BCC, is a licensed psychotherapist and board-certified coach. DeeAnna teaches the ethical integration of alternative and psychospiritual approaches for coaches and therapists. She holds several certifications in the healing arts including Reiki and aromatherapy. DeeAnna’s doctoral studies focused on multifaith spiritual direction. https://deeannamerznagel.com/
Sponsored by Onlinevents
https://www.onlinevents.co.uk/
Soul Portals: Exploring Psychospiritual Horizons
Cultivating Embodied Spirituality: Being Fully Human
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Cultivating Embodied Spirituality: Being Fully Human, hosted by Cedric Speyer and DeeAnna Nagel, in conversation with Austyn Wells
It is a truism for those ‘on the path’ that we are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We are not a body with a soul; we are an eternal soul, an infinite Self, inhabiting a temporary body. Yet we find ourselves at an ‘in-between’ position in relation to this earthly experience, navigating life/death, heaven/earth, inner/outer, seen/unseen. As a spiritual medium and ‘soul gardener’, our November Soul Portals guest guides spiritual seekers in the process of uniting the dichotomies of worldly life, nurturing their intuition, reclaiming their whole heart, and communing with the divine. In this episode, we will explore how grief counseling, spirit communication, hypnotherapy and regression, indigenous medicine, shamanism, and energy exercises, all contribute to aligning everyday life with one’s deepest soul-based wisdom.
Podcast-related book | https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38744765-soul-conversations
Website | https://austynwells.com/
Drama Triangle Resource | https://karpmandramatriangle.com/dt_article_only.html
This Podcast is sponsored by Onlinevents
Hello and welcome to Soul Portals, exploring psycho-spiritual horizons with your hosts Cedric Speyer and Deanna Nagel. Cedric is an author and therapist who developed the interview guidance model and is a pathfinder in the psycho-spiritual realm. Deanna created the Essential Soul Care Model, a model suitable for therapists, coaches, and healers. The monthly episodes of Soul Portals feature guests sharing insights on their personal paths and professional practices. Thank you for tuning in for the Soul Talk with all kinds of trailblazing teachers and guides as Cedric, Deanna, and guests explore new evolutionary landscapes.
SPEAKER_03This is our usual invocation at the beginning, which goes like this. So Austin Wells is a spiritual medium, grief counselor, soul gardener. And there's a lot growing in her garden who empowers individuals to create soul-centered lives. And we'll explore that more as we go along. So this is a quote from chapter 8. When we are connected with our infinite self, we are a soul that has been gifted with a physical body and a mind through which to experience the natural world. This soul shift allows the infinite self to oversee and guide the finite self. We must honor both perspectives because we cannot simply live spiritually, nor can we operate only from the finite self. So it's about who's in the driver's seat and who's the passenger. I actually have my own model of the soul in the driver's seat and the and the spirit and ego and psyche in as the passenger seat. So Austin, how did how did you come to be Austin Wells, the soul gardener?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, thank you both so much for having me on your podcast. I'm very honored to be here and to engage in a fruitful conversation about the soul and our journey. My journey began when I was very little when I was five. So that self-reliance kicked in really early, but I also had one foot in the awareness that there was an invisible support system. So I prayed and asked for help. And in that moment, my the walls of my room became somewhat gelatinous, and uh souls stepped from, I suppose, another dimension into my room. I could see them, I wasn't worried, I had no fear, I could see through them. So diaphanous beings. One came to my bedside and gently said, uh, we're here to help. And it wasn't in verbal words, it was as if it was a knowing inside of myself that was communicated through both of our souls and heard by each one of us. And at that point, my room became two realities. And to my right, I could see the moment I was worried about the next day manifesting. It was a runway show, and I had to be a bridesmaid with too much tool, so I couldn't see my feet and I was freaked out. So I was worried I was gonna go up the stairs and face plant. So I witnessed that little me walking up the stairs and making it to the top without any kind of impingement of gravity. And so once I knew I was gonna be okay, then they had me become the energy of the room and the people witnessing me. And then they had me become the energy of the full space, the invisible space surrounding the humans that were there. And I immediately knew I was gonna be fine. In that moment of realization, that dissipated. I became just me back in the bed with the individual, the woman that was standing by my side. And she intuited to me again, are you okay? And I said, Yes. She went back into my walls and I fell asleep. And the events of the next day transpired almost exactly as I had envisioned. So it was remote viewing, it was a bunch of different metaphysical principles that uh took a couple of years to unpack. But once I had that awareness, I really became clear that there was a very evident duality of our souls. And that's been a passion point, you know, five years old is a little young to write a dissertation about something like that. But once I kind of understood what was happening, um, that became really compelling to me.
SPEAKER_05So, but I I want to back up because you said you were five years old, you were in bed and you were praying. What what was so obviously there was a spiritual component already there.
SPEAKER_02Praying is probably a word I would use now. I was asking for flipping help.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Which, you know, my more mature safe would say, Oh, well, I was praying. But you know, when I was five, I had a need and I didn't know where to go with it, but I had enough memory, which young children tend to have up until six or seven of a presence that's greater than themselves, you know, that place of ancestry or spirit or infinite intelligence, God, whatever that supplanted word is. And so I was invoking my divine right to um get some help.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Perfect sense.
SPEAKER_02Because I can't really say we were like a big religious family.
SPEAKER_05Right. So you were, I mean, some would say that that's innate in us, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes. I think it's within us, absolutely, uh, Deanna. And I think we forget it. I think we have all the skills when we're born, then we forget it so we can remember it again at a different point in our life. And that probably would be when we choose a different level of enlightenment. So if we're talking about dark and light, it's when the shadow becomes profound enough that we are seeking a different liberation from the stories we tell ourselves.
SPEAKER_03Right. Was there a moment, watershed moment when you turned the corner to using those skills to helping other people as you do now?
SPEAKER_02Um yes. Uh it came, I've used the word cattle prod already. Um, it came by uh different individuals cattle prodding me into moments that I was reluctant about. Uh, one was a party planner who said, you can read tarot cards, go to the party, smile and say nice things. That was that was the beginning of, and I knew I knew the tarot and I love the tarot, but that was a cattle prod moment. Um I was affiliated with the very beautiful um psychic medium, John Edward. He cattle prodded me into speaking on an internet presence he had years ago, where I was taking callers and helping people in a spiritual capacity and didn't feel that that was within my realm, but he saw something in me that I didn't know about myself at the time. So, and then there's been, I think, other moments where events have occurred, and I have intelligently, thank God, said yes. So it embarked because I think there's constant opportunities for your own evolution. It's just our free will and the activation of our free will, whether or not we step into those moments or not.
SPEAKER_03Right. It's a good time to say to the attendees if anyone wants to have a mini reading, can I call it? Or oh, yes.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, you're gonna get people on a yes on that one, for sure.
SPEAKER_03We'll see.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um what would that entail? Hi, Victoria. Nice to meet you. Hi. Um thank you. And Cedric, thank you for letting me know that's part of what we're gonna be doing this morning because that might take us off path of other discussions that we've talked about, but hey, I'm I'm always up for this. Um, what that entails is a medium, and this might be a nice opportunity to explain the difference between a psychic and a medium. A psychic is or an intuitive is someone who is able to perceive information about your journey within the lifetime that you are in right now. The people involved, the relationships, your soul lessons, things like that. So think of it as a parentheses on this lifetime. An intuitive, a psychic will be able to perceive, knock on wood, will be able to perceive that information with love and compassion and reflect it back to you in a way that is fruitful and expansive. A medium has the ability to connect not only your personal soul, but to those souls that have passed, whether pet or person. And it also can expand to guides, angels, those kind of realms. However, to me, mediumship should be something that is corroborable or evidential. So it should be something where the information that comes forward is enough that you can allocate and identify the person to which the medium is talking with. The spirit world or the ancestor realm, because there's many different dimensions in spirituality. Um, that particular realm, think of it like a layer of an onion, that's kind of a great way. Like that's where that collective vibration is accessible. The ancestors witness our suffering. So our misunderstanding of the potential of an infinite existence or you know an eternity of being, we don't understand because we're defined by the material world. Once out of physical form, they are very almost instantaneously aware of how their soul and their lack of accountability or progression has affected others. So they will always be seeking curative conversation. However, a medium cannot always just be going, oh my God, they love you so much, because there's no evidence there. And they may never have had that skill set. So my job is to allocate and to balance the difference between the necessary evidential information for you to have confidence the individual is being represented with their deeper wisdom understanding now that they're out of physical form.
SPEAKER_05So one of the things I liked that you said in the book was that um mediumship is not just about, and I'm using my words, but it's not just about talking to uh your people who've passed. It's it's always in a curative way. It's always about a healing taking place.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05And I think that's missed a lot in in the pop culture.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I and I it it speaks to um my my middle name should be integrity integrity because I I like have a really hard time with um anyone who seeks out someone like me and is gifted information that makes them feel disempowered, um uh threatened, fearful. Because those are all that's the human being within the practitioner, speaking to the fear base or the human being or the finite self within the person that's coming for the reading. Additionally, my job is to be very firmly within my infinite self or that aspect of me that is aware of a higher consciousness. So a practitioner should seem like they kind of have their stuff together and that they give a presence of peace and of groundedness because you would want your information to come from the highest potential vibration. So if that person isn't coming from that space and they're doing anything that's making you feel diminished, then they're not coming from that pure sense of mediumship, which isn't about me being the truth teller. I'm between two individuals, I'm or two souls or two entities, right? So my job is not to say, oh my god, well, I think. Yeah, my job is to be the intermediary between those consciousness, like a conduit, like a conduit.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and you also I like that in terms of the flow of our hour, because we have a eager volunteer here in Victoria. Uh, so how contained can it be?
SPEAKER_02In terms, I mean, how well let me work with Victoria and we'll figure it out. How's that? Yeah, and contained meaning you want me to to keep it at a kind of a clip.
SPEAKER_03No, I meant like in the time frame.
SPEAKER_02Yes, so more or less I'll be mindful. So, Victoria, this will be a snippet of something, so you know. So um uh uh I can see her in a little window. So, Jared, I don't know if you can give her there.
SPEAKER_03She is a beautiful woman.
SPEAKER_02Hello, um, Victoria, how could I serve you today? Who would what would be helpful for you? So normally in a mediumship sitting, I would never ask such a question. I would just dive right in, but in this sense, just to be respectful of time and circumstance, how can I serve you today?
SPEAKER_06Um, I don't really have a particular question, but I'd like to be guided by whatever comes to you because I believe that that's what I would be meant to hear today.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. Um, can I let me ask a question? Is your father in spirit?
SPEAKER_06No.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Would you understand there being a disconnected or a relationship um an evolutionary opportunity with the relationship that you have with your father? No, not with my father. Okay. Are you uh would you understand that with a father-in-law? No, maybe a grandpa. Okay, dad's dad? No, okay. Only because it has something to do with uh uh because I see things very clearly when it when it kind of lays itself out. Um interesting. Um thank you for being generous. I'll just say this randomly. Thank you for being generous with animals. Thank you for rescuing animals because that's being called forward that you have a generosity in that way toward um either. Do you understand that rescuing animals or being kind to animals or bringing animals into your home that have been like disenfranchised? Do you understand that?
SPEAKER_06Well, I know that cats keep coming to me and just hanging out in my house until I chuck them out the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's just some recognition on that on a very ancillary level. So I just want to say that. Um I'm gonna reframe the question and just ask what would be the best of service for you today. Um I adore the person that you are, I adore your passion. And I want to speak very much to the fact that you're so you're kind of like this awesome octopus that has tentacles in so many different directions, and you have so many different ways that you want to serve and so many different interests. Don't ever feel that it has to be delineated in one way because I feel that you're very similar in the passion that I have, that like I could do this and this, and this correlates with that. I would mind map as much as possible your all the things that you're interested in. And trust me, they will all kind of come together in a way that will be very fruitful for you. You have a gorgeous professional trajectory. Like I appreciate the way that you want to, again, serve from such a place of heart. A lot of it comes from disenfranchisement, a lot of it comes from lack of communication. And I think that probably connects with that side of the family, mom side of the family, dad, the grandfather, the whole thing. And I think what you've done is you've allowed the collective ancestry within your own family, and you've taken on the cause of I want to be the change. But because you're walking and speaking the talk and noticing it's made a difference for you, your service piece is now I want to offer this to other people. So when I align with someone that notices the pattern within their own family and then steps into the service piece from their own being because of that, then I know that the person's found their passion piece. And you're feeling the chills and getting the goosebumps right now.
SPEAKER_06I had a pulsation in my body, which I know means it's right. And then I'm my whole body is now um feeling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So I always ask.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So when I'm when I'm connecting with someone, I also ask that our souls are connected so I can feel your energy field, but I can feel this wash of just like this coolness and and and that to me is always that affirmation, confirmation of yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So because you don't all, I mean, you get support, but you have done so many things on your own and with your own initiation. Um, take this as a spiritual high five that you're absolutely doing the right thing, but don't feel like it has to be linear because you're very linear in your progression. And what I want you to do is give yourself the freedom to be able to trust the fact that it doesn't have to follow A to B to C. So yeah, so just go with the flow of it and trust what you're doing, and the books will come and the other things that you want to do and the speaking and all of that. But you're in an information gathering point right now where I think your personal intersection is starting to reach a level where you're offering that wisdom to others. So let that play out a little bit, and then I think you'll find the cadence of that will take you forward.
SPEAKER_00Does that help a little bit?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, thank you so much. I love the alignment of seeing you tonight because today there was a client and literally every word she said, it popped into my mind just before I knew exactly what she was saying at all times. It was crazy. I didn't have that. So I love that I've seen you today as well.
SPEAKER_02It's and it's also I found sometimes is this was especially true when I was studying shamanism, is that um I would have people call me before I had taken the class asking for the session I had yet to learn, and they didn't even know I was going to have it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that was my affirmation of so even if you're five minutes before your client, you're good. Yeah. It fits and I don't think there's any shame in allowing your own personal process to be offered to them as a mirror because it creates that kind of familiarity. And I think these days people aren't looking for a therapist that holds back and gives space, they're looking for inclusion and community. So you you have a beautiful way of collaborating with your client.
SPEAKER_06Yes, absolutely. Spot on. Yay! And to the spirit.
SPEAKER_05Woo! Yes, woo-hoo. And and may I say I'm a big fan of synchronicity. And just before I came on today, yeah, a friend of mine had sent me a music video with an octopus. Yeah. We're talking like 10 minutes before I came on this call. Perfect. There you go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful, Victoria. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Thanks for asking.
SPEAKER_03So uh thanks. That was great, Victoria and Austin. So switching gears, because we often ask is if there's a therapeutic approach that you found transformative, and I already know the answer because it's in chapter nine. And it's something uh Therapists would relate to if they're familiar with the drama triangle. So if you could, you know, tell us some more a little more about that.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Absolutely. So in my book, Soul Conversations, uh, that came out in 2000, I think it's 19. Um, the publisher was New Harbinger, and I was speaking with Cedric and Deanna about thank you very much. Look, she's Carol Merrilling. She's like, hi there, here's the book. Um, the the beautiful thing about it, now Cedric, you're doing even now, you just have to bevel, you'll be fine. Um, the beautiful thing about working with New Harbinger is they're a scientific-based publishing company. So they work with therapists and counselors. Um, and uh Dr. Lindsay Gibson's book, um, emotion um um Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. That's a book that is actually came out around the same time as my book, that now is quite getting a great deal of attention, uh, as long as as well as the untethered soul. So they've done some really great books, and I feel very honored to walk amongst them. Um, what I discovered was I was very drawn in to Kaufman's work from, I think it was 1972 when he was developing or introduced the drama triangle, which um just as a point of recapitulation, um is is the uh the triangle of the perpetrator, the rescuer, and the victim. And it's always how I visualize it, because it helps me with the um distribution of it, is that the perpetrator and the vic and the rescuer are the top of the triangle and the apex of the triangle is the victim, because no matter where we are in the triangle, we always end up a victim. So I was looking at the presentation of the perpetrator needing to dominate and needing to be you know forceful. And it's um, I discovered in my own kind of understanding of it that the limiting belief underneath it was needing to be in control, to be safe, and that um diminishing other people is either incompetent or blaming other people and um uh always on the defense. So then um I looked at the rescuer and I came to understand about the rescuer that there was this feeling of need of being need needing to be needed and needing to save, but there being a sense of loss of self to serve others. And that quality and that characteristic really appealed to me because a lot of children who grow up in dynamics where there is an alcoholic, uh, there's what I call a light switch parent, which we could put in per persecutor, perpetrator role or victim, but it's someone who's there and not and there and not. It breeds an intuitive child, which falls into the rescuer category because it's a person who a child that will be in the place of, are you okay? Because if you're okay, I'm safe. And if you're not okay, my entire attention goes to you. So that child becomes energy sensitive, invisibly sensitive to what's going on without words in order to create a sense. So they're always seeking connection. So codependency, whether it falls in that category, that could be certainly debated, but it's that need to always have a sense of connection, but generally by over-serving another person, creating a diminutive sense of self, which then of course creates fantastic resentment that then eventually gets to be uh to such a level that then um therapy or help comes into mind, hopefully, if the person is intelligent enough, right? And then the other role is that of victim, and that is someone that needs attention and sympathy and has a hard time taking responsibility for their own actions and they just have a sense of powerlessness and helplessness. Um, so that so then I looked at the core beliefs. So the core belief of a perpetrator is I'm not lovable, because they're used to having abandonment as part of their um trajectory. The rescuer is I'm not enough. And then the victim is I can't. So I said to myself, so if that's what the overlay of how the our finite self, so finite self is human being, infinite self is the the our the part of us that is aware of the fact that life happens for us as opposed to finite self, life life happens to me, which sounds very victimizing. So, in that context, I thought, well, what is the psycho-spiritual evolution of that drama triangle when it comes to people seeking spiritual truth? So the perpetrator becomes the, since it's an anima, it's an action, it's a dominance, I thought, well, that's kind of like the divine masculine energy, a misuse of it, because we're mass, we're masculine, feminine within ourselves, right? So I thought, okay, well, then that's so then the the answer to that perpetrator persecutor is starting to really understand what is the divine masculine within me. How can I lead and be a mentor and not diminish people, but hold a space for them to step into their becoming with relatedness and not defense. Then I looked at the the rescuer and I thought, well, the rescuer is really the divine mother, in a way, the divine feminine, because rescuing is this sense of relatedness and connection and a and a sense of um emotional exchange, not an action, but more of a passive exchange. And so then the rescuer becomes the nurturer that then has the ability to not need to fix, which is the greatest Achilles heel of the rescuer. Because he can't fix anybody, man, that just always blows up in your face. Um, but but to want to hold space and nurture someone and allow them to discover their own limitations, but being held in a space of I'm with you, I'm walking alongside of you. If you need me, I'm here, use your words, empowering that person to be able to um find their way and and and nurture themselves. And then the um victim becomes the divine child, and it's the part of us that can recapture innocence and say, Life is an adventure, I'm supposed to learn, fumbling is part of it. It's not that I can't, I just don't know how. And once I came up with that, it became what I call the soul-centered star. So then if the triangle goes down with the drama triangle, then it's superimposed with a triangle that goes like that, that creates a star. So they overlay with each other. So I hope that I hope that definition makes sense with it. But it it really it helped me bridge that connection between when my finite self is kafuffling, I can look at myself and say, what is what is the core belief here? You know, I'm not supported or I feel um I feel um alone, and then I can allocate where I am, and then I can look at it from that divine perspective and say, I need nurturing or I need I need freedom and and trust, you know, and and come from it from that perspective.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a great uh reframe. It makes me wonder what's the normal therapizing of the current the drama triangle without the soul work, without the soul work.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I I haven't Deanna, step in, please. It the this conversation without the soul piece reminds me of transactional analysis, adult parent, child. I'm okay, you're okay. I'm okay, you're okay, you're not okay. I'm not okay, you're okay. All of those transactions that we do, and there's a whole theoretical orientation called transactional analysis, came out about the same time in the 70s. Um with that said, how far can you go with that again? Without the for me, the psycho-spiritual piece has to be there, or it or it falls flat. So I have a question with this how does this um conceptualization that you determined for yourself, how does that inform your work as a medium? Because that's the piece I don't think people understand that if you we all have intuitive gifts, but if we use them without a structure, without a framework, without purpose, it's unbridled.
SPEAKER_02I think if it isn't personally integrated, much like a therapist being in therapy. I think we're only as good as we're willing to evolve ourselves. So as a medium, what I've that all of that realization came from the witnessing, which is the beauty of mediumship, which is my ability to witness a soul and spirit who left unfinished business and the soul that's still within the physical form, struggling, and witness what happens when love and forgiveness is introduced, and what is that dynamic and how does that shift and change? And it was then by witnessing that, then I got to a point where I was like, well, I don't want to just drop people off at the curb with spirit messages. Now that I understand that that's why I studied shamanism and that's why I did life coaching and all the other modalities that I keep adding, because I'm always saying to myself, I also have a job as a human being that's had a couple of moments on the planet to be able to offer objectively um observations about how those models are playing within a person's life. So there is an element within the sessions that I do that are allocated differently that work with people on celebrating the aspects of themselves, which has that. So I wanted to study um life coaching because I wanted to understand like what is that model? And it's a beautiful model because it's just asking great questions and empowering people to come up with the solutions that already exist within them. It's just most people don't know, and therapy does that fantastically, and counseling does that beautifully too. So there's so many different ways, I think, but it takes the audacity for a person to understand that they are beyond their own wit, that their own wisdom is inaccessible, and that they need the connection of another intelligence, whether in physical form or out of physical form, to give them the missing puzzle piece that then begins the next path forward. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Is it fair to say that the finite self is ego and infinite self is soul and spirit?
SPEAKER_02Yes, but I think yes, I think it it can absolutely definitely have the ego component to it, but it also has some other mythologies to it because the finite self is also informed by the material world, and within the material world, everything dies. It also is gifted a physical form, and since we're predominantly visual, everything around us makes us feel we are singular and separate. So we're seeing everything from a material perspective. That's the finite kind of I don't want to say imprisonment, but that's the mythology of the finite self, along with the ego, the emotions, and everything. So it's this idea that, and it's it's so quantumly different in perspective. The finite self is individually aligned and aware, and the infinite self is aware of it being part of everything. So, in one capacity, I'm on my own by myself, it's all me. And the other one is you're part of everything and connected to everything. And it's just like mind-blowing to think that that duality can exist within consciousness of a being.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But when people are stuck, it's because they're there, they there's an aspect of their fine infinite self that knows there needs to be forward motion, but the finite self is stuck in the looping of the stories we tell ourselves or the belief system. So we have you guys know this singing to the choir. Um but you know, so yes, it's definitely a component of it, but I think it it really has helped me see it from an energy perspective. Because, you know, if we if we rely just on the physical vision and forget the vision of energy, which is they call it a clear sense, I just call it soul seeing, is that the invisibility between everything is just as credible as the physical manifestation of it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So one is I would I would imagine the finite is more linear, and the infinite is in in terms of conceptualizing time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and thank you for bringing time into it. Isn't it funny? So time is this multi-dimensional principle, and we only see it in two dimensions, past, present, future. It's a line. Nothing about that makes any sense whatsoever. The minute people get into the infinite space, you uh go to a concert with a musician you love, you do a piece of art, you dance, you do something, you lose track of time. Then time becomes creative. So time has so much flexibility to it, but because we have to keep delineating everything and defining everything, God love our brain, you know, we we don't ever see anything as anything other than what was, what is, and where we're going, if we're lucky enough.
SPEAKER_03My model has the horizontal and vertical dimensions, and the action is at the crossroads, the intersection between the hor the vertical dimension of life and the horizontal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So yeah, which is why the cross to me is so breathtaking. Yeah, because the cross is simply the awareness of there's one dimension that is within the physical, but there's also a different dimension that intersects it.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_02So I think the power of that symbology is magnificent. However, it's interesting in the um indigenous cultures, the southern cross is not centered here, it's up like this. So there's so that it's more like a person standing like this, which I've always enjoyed that idea of it. But yes, that intersection is magnificently important. And the other almost makes me think of Michelangelo's, you know, the man standing like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The other way of putting it is that we're monkeys in the middle between heaven and earth. So, which is the problem with the wish, the hope of one day we're gonna have heaven on earth, and that's you know, that not being the reality, like heaven, you know, we're in the middle, yes, we're mediators between heaven and earth.
SPEAKER_02But speaking that way, that's and and this is with this is I think what our our conundrum is right now. We perceive everything through our our brain, so we think everything. So we have to have a logical understanding of it. Now, the challenge with that is heaven doesn't have a location up there, and earth is here because we see it, but when you go to energy, there is no differentiation, there is no separation, there's just a collective field. So when you're when you're in that place, and this is the challenge with the human being, because we are derivative and driven by our brain, and our brain says, you know, I have to this information comes in, I have to make sense of it, and then I have to file it, and then I can move on, which is why we all get traumatized by experiences that we can't understand, and we get stuck there. But once you can shift to that infinite awareness, which is energy first, not physical, then you're in a place and a space of relationship with it because you're not separate from it. It's an ed, it's an essence of you, it is part of you, it's part of your quantum field of experience. So then it's automatically much more accessible and relatable, which is why I'm always happy when energy medicine or any kind of energy work. I mean, you think of qigong, uh, the beautiful practice in um in the in the in the Eastern cultures, when a person has cancer, part of their diagnosis and their aftercare is qigong. And their evidences and and numbers of of remission is so much more less than anywhere else in the world, because what they're doing is they're creating an energetic relationship with themselves, not just seeing themselves as a physical body. So that's why that duality of the soul to me is an imperative for people to understand. No, actually, your energy first, and the energy manifests in for in physical form. But you try to explain that to most human beings and they'll be like, hmm?
SPEAKER_03Well, the old the old spiritual being having a human experience rather than the other way around.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, but you know, it's it's you can't corroborate it, you can't touch it, it's invisible. So to say the invisible, the invisible essence of life is what is real and what you can actually see is the limit, is is an absolutely mystic, bizarre concept for most people.
SPEAKER_03Until we get to the integral phase of evolution, yes, Ken Wilbur and company um about the different phases we've gone through in the big picture. Yes, we are moving out of the rational phase, which is why it's breaking out.
SPEAKER_01Let's hope so.
SPEAKER_03It's collapsing anyway, yeah. Yeah, like uh you know, the dumbing down of society is just a symptom of the whole rational model, you know, losing its grip.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it but it also goes in a way to the to the I mean, we're living the drama triangle in a really extraordinary way. For the last couple of years, we've been having perpetrators, but the thing is is to be thrown into that triangle on a collective consciousness level. I'm grateful for it because that does need evolution. So to me, when we all get thrown in the same classroom and where there's a dominance of perpetrator persecutors, you're going to have either people stepping into the triangle and saying, Oh my God, there's nothing I can do, or how can I fix this? What can I do? Or you're going to have people say, No, there's a greater thing. We need to create a different dynamic of connection and love and community to embrace that which is unconscious, which is asking for evolution.
SPEAKER_03When you said the everyone, it all defaults to the victim, that was new info for me because I thought I thought you get stuck in one of the three positions.
SPEAKER_02We play it if you think about it in almost any model that I've experienced. And again, please, if I am saying anything or offending anybody because I am not a therapist, this all has come from 20 plus years of listening to people and making observations on my own. What I have noticed is no matter where you step into the triangle, you always end up in victim. Because if you try to rescue someone and they perpetrate you, you go to victim. If you are a perpetrator and you try to dominate somebody and they make you feel unlovable, you go to victim. It just always feels to me that we always go to that place of I'm not supported, I'm I'm lost, I'm alone, because we all started off as children. And all most of our issues, most, I mean, it'd be a pretty low percentage of people whose issues transcend childhood. Most people's major imprints are from very young. So that divine child is a massive, beautiful aspect of us to reclaim is the innocence to not know and to wander into a moment with mindfulness and and presence to allow our life to be what it is in this moment, not informed by prior moments or fear of future moments.
SPEAKER_05And to be a persecutor or perpetrator or rescuer slash codependent at some point they were victims.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And that was the defense that they created absolutely. Yes. You don't become a rescuer unless you needed to connect to someone, which means that you were in that divine childhood. State and someone wasn't there for you. So you either became defended or you became a connector. And whatever that default is then creates those roles. So lovely observation. And which is conversation awesome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And which did you become?
SPEAKER_02Which did I become? Um, oh, rescuer. I'm a I'm a recovering rescuer. Look at the work I do. I'm trying to um, you know, and it's it's always interesting when you look at what were the deficits. I had a tremendous amount of anger growing up in in the area around me. So that was never some, you know, I was like, oh, anger, you know. So to hone that skill myself and learn the proper way of communicating with dominance and not feeling that I'm going to like, you know, step on someone like a bad Monica Python cartoon. Um, you know, um, that's that's a go for me. But it's also really necessary for me to step into the divine masculine within me as much as the divine feminine and divine child, which I'm really good at.
SPEAKER_05And I know for me, depending on what's happening in my life, I may be faced with re-experiencing some issues I thought I had finished. Yes. And then I end up in that triangle in any of the three positions. Right. So sometimes we have to recycle a few times through that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we do. And but I think the other benefit to me of the triangle and really understanding it was I could catch myself going, oh, hang on. Yep, there you go. Nope, let them figure it out themselves. And I realized also with because I've spent a lot of time at Make Guess with rescuer, because of that energetic connectivity that happens in childhood with needing to feel safe if the rescuer is kind of the lane that you go into. Um, we also um have a very hard time with letting things go because we we and the and the fix it part comes from this pissed me off once I figured this part out. I was like, are you kidding me? Because I thought, oh, I'm helping people, I'm doing something right, right? And rescuer wants to be the good girl and the good guy and the whole thing. But what I realized was in objectively witnessing it, is part of the reason why the fix is there, because we don't feel comfortable with the energy that's being displayed. So we want to fix it to stop the discomfort, which tends to come into the person's solar plexus. So we'll stop it because it's uncomfortable for us. So once I realized it was actually a selfish, there was a level of selfishness to it, I was like, no, like I was so mad about that. But it was really imperative that I noticed it because then I could say back to myself and I could go, there's that energy escalating again. That's yours to figure out, not project onto the situation and fix it with that when that's when other bit with is that when other people feel controlled that when it lands on them? Well, then they go to perpetrator, right? Because you're you're trying to fix them, then they'll go to perpetrator, where do you go from there? Victim. See how it works? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And solar plexus is all about our self-worth anyway.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05So if we're if we are attempting to gain self-worth from fixing somebody else, that's likely going to boomerang.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. And there's a really sweet correlation between third chakra and fifth chakra. So I'll find that um in working with mediums, for instance, when I'm training a medium to do the profession in some regard. If they can't feel spirit, some or less they'll see spirit, like they'll describe someone visually, or they'll know information about them, or they'll hear them talking to them, but they don't feel their energy, I immediately know I have someone that has trust issues because the third chakra is also the willingness to connect with another individual. So, based on the psychic or the intuitive perceptions that show up in a person. So, for you know, people that are listening, who every one of you is intuitive because you're within the soul space of another human being. And when you are in that intimate space, you automatically become intuitive. You can't help it. Massage therapists, hairstylists, anybody who's within somebody's field at a close distance.
SPEAKER_03Bartenders.
SPEAKER_02Bartenders, well, they have a bar between them, we hope.
SPEAKER_03But you know, it's sounds like there's a crossover, you know, the Celestine prophecy, and he has the four control dramas, right? Because it sounds like any which way it goes, there's gonna be control dramas, like right?
SPEAKER_02We're human, yeah. We're gonna we're gonna try and think we're all that in a bag of chips, and it's it's not gonna last very long, but we can try. I think humility is so charming these days. The people that are still really defended, I'm like, oh man, you have a little bit, you have a journey. Good luck with that. Don't know how that's gonna play out for you, but a little humility every now and then, not a bad thing. Apology, accountability, my favorite qualities in people.
SPEAKER_05I'm looking to see if there's any questions in the chat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05We've got about 10 minutes left. So if you've got a question, please feel free to put it in the chat.
SPEAKER_02Oh, uh, Marion, the name of my book is Soul. I can we can put it in the chat, but it's um Soul Conversations. A medium reveals how to cultivate your intuition, heal your heart, and connect with the divine. You can find it on um New Harbinger's website. You can also get it on Amazon. Yay.
SPEAKER_03So are you a lamp, a lifeboat?
SPEAKER_02You know what? I I should know our tech god, it was already on it. Sorry.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Jerry. Are you a lamp, a lifeboat, or a ladder? Austin.
SPEAKER_02Am I a what? A lamp, a light boat, lifeboat, or a lantern?
SPEAKER_03No, uh a lamp. When you help people, minister, are you like a lamp, a lifeboat or a ladder? Or does it change depending on who you're with?
SPEAKER_01I'm in a lifeboat with a ladder and a lamp.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good answer.
SPEAKER_01I need all of them.
SPEAKER_02I need the ladder to be able to connect with the spirit world because my intelligence is not enough to float the conversation. I need the lamp because I've got to see in the dark. And I need lifeboat because I have to remind myself I'm human too, and I'm gonna learn from the situation and not to take it so seriously because my I learn from everything I do, whether it's you know, Tiana making an observation, Cedric, you making an observation, and and you know, yeah. I need them all, I need everything, give me it all.
SPEAKER_03How am I gonna ask that question again in other episodes now that you've given the ultimate answer?
SPEAKER_02No, you'll know you'll find you'll find they're gonna answer it just as creatively, I'm certain. Yeah, I'll take all the help I can get, seriously.
SPEAKER_03You know who you who agrees with you about your vision of the duo consciousness, double awareness? Who? I'm Mary Magdalene in the gospel of Mary Magdalene.
SPEAKER_02Well, do you know I will gladly walk in that company? So right, so talking about divine feminine. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like the Dead Sea Scrolls, so they discovered manuscripts, and yeah, and so it's another gospel, which of course was written out of the Bible, and it's you know, they have the the original and then translated on the other side.
SPEAKER_02Oh beautiful, and Cedric, thank you so much for your profound uh grab of literature and works and and books on different subjects because you've quoted, I think, about seven or eight books already within this session. Which is great. Some people actually it it isn't so much, I think, about us grabbing because what I appreciated about it is you're not, you know. Well, let me tell you about Mary Magdalene, because this is the only answer. What you're doing is you're doing the you know, the spiritual buffet. I'm gonna have a little asparagus, I'm gonna take a little of this and that, and then you come up with your own awareness with integrated with your own experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yes, an excellent curator. Yes, curator, that's it. Yeah, and I do bibliotherapy on the side for people when I get to know them, like I match them up, like matchmaking, matchmaking people in books and people in movies.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, that's you should that's that's a very romantic, it's kind of like a um uh a renaissance man, right?
SPEAKER_03You got me. Now you're now you're channeling.
SPEAKER_02No, but that's such a cool thing to do because I we I think people feel there's so much external stimulus, yeah, that anytime you can invite someone into a conversation with themselves, whether it's reading a book, journaling, um, meditating, any kind of time that there's that inward focus, I think people have a deeper sense of not only self, but connection. Because the external connections to others, that's always gonna vary and wobble. Um, you can't really accomplish very much that way through life if you're always externally focused. You know, rescuers love to do that.
SPEAKER_03They're all do you know do you know the Enneagram, by the way?
SPEAKER_02Um, that is that's a fairly new pursuit, but I'm fortunate. I don't know if you've ever heard of B Chestnut.
SPEAKER_03We did an episode with her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, yeah. B was my roommate years ago. And I didn't realize that she went off in the path that she did. And one of our mutual friends said, Oh, you know, B has written this beautiful book about the Enneagram. I'm like, What? Yeah, we interviewed her like what three months ago. Oh, she's awesome. She's she's she's just magnificent, and yeah, we used to be roommates, it's really funny. I can see that there's another one.
SPEAKER_03We also did a podcast on on Qi Gong. We had somebody for a whole hour on that now that you mentioned it before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, qi gong is so good, it's all good.
SPEAKER_03I just think there's all those paths to exploration, which are to come by my reading honestly, because I grew up, my mom kept the TV out of the house, so no TV until I was a teenager and rebelled, and eventually I bought her a TV. But no TV, and we used to just sit together reading the family.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So Mary Magdalene and she says, uh then I said to him, Lord, when someone meets you in a moment of vision, is it through the soul psyche that they see, or is it through the spirit? The teacher answered, it is neither through the soul nor the spirit, but the new between the two which sees the vision. So I think that lines up with the opening quote where you also it does.
SPEAKER_02I just again when we when we see things from the material perspective, everything's separate. And it could there's nothing that could be farther from the truth. There isn't a space between us, there isn't my physical body, your physical body, we're all part of a quantum field to make it very scientific. Now you could define that field as infinite intelligence, the field, God, however, however you want to define it, but it isn't a separation at all. But because we can't see it, right? When people say, you know, I'm I'm off path or I'm on the wrong, you can't go off the path. You're going, you know, there's something that's in the work. It's it's just it's integrating into just always. But I think helping people understand that presence is present, is is the best thing and and one of the most interesting explorations that you can step into.
SPEAKER_05When we're off path, when we feel like we're off path, it's really just a mirror, a shadow mirror looking back at us, showing us what what we need to be focused on.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. And I think again, we come to those analogies that put something outside of us, something inside of us, right? That we're having this mirroring experience. But again, it's so difficult for our brain to conceptualize anything that's integrated. We'll always see it as separate in most of our imagery. And I think it in it since all of us in one capacity or another are working with individuals who are feeling disenfranchised. I think it's up to us to be mindful of the symbologies that we use, because our symbology and our explanations can equally distance people from something instead of finding what's the connectivity between it, right? So I love your analogy because the mirror becomes the connectivity, right? There's an aspect, an aspect, that's what their issue is. I don't feel integrated, but the mirror creates an ability for there to be a relationship between the two. And I'm always finding that that seems to be part of the healing process of these souls that have left physical form, is that they're connecting to and making you feel seen, heard, acknowledged.
SPEAKER_03Doesn't that apply a certain level of evolution, though, where it's no longer mayhem and merger? Like, you know, like because it's like the advanced course here.
SPEAKER_02Well, it is the advanced course, but again, if we are both finite and infinite self, it's our responsibility also to remind ourselves of the invisible presence as much as the visible presence. It's just our human being doesn't want to do that.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_05Well, and we don't, as individuals, even if we understand, you know, have a concept of shadow work or however you want to soul work, um, we don't necessarily know how to look in the mirror and reflect back the powerful questions to ourselves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's, you know, I I uh my I have a membership where um people come together every week and um we have a book club and ancestor messages and all sorts of really groovy things that transpire every month. Um, but we've been reading, rereading The Artist Way, which I had forgotten Julia Cameron's really great book. And it's been such a blessing for me because I it had been a while since I've journaled. I used to journal all the time, and out of it came so many other ways of journaling with aspects of myself. Right. And I realized, you know, it's just such a powerful tool for conversation, but a conversation requires two people. So I think what we forget in the journaling process is you're talking with yourself. So there you're already creating a level of comfort because there's a connectivity, if you can see it as that. You're having part of you is is reflecting on what you're writing, and part of you is being given permission to express. So if I think that duality of of the soul has just helped me profoundly because it gives me this permission to be a bit of a conundrum, you know, I can have it totally together and be a complete mess at the same time, and that's what's supposed to happen. It's not, I'm not supposed to just be a desired result all the time. So I think having that awareness that that contrast is how we learn, how we grow, then you can kind of be yeah.
SPEAKER_03Someone said the wound and the healing, the wound and the healing can coexist.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So on that note, the hour has flown by. So the the closing blessing is may we do our best to use a wide angle lens while we serve the moment that's unfolding in front of us.
SPEAKER_05I love it.
SPEAKER_03Amen.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Jerf for helping helping us with the tech. Um you can find this on your favorite podcast channel and YouTube momentarily within a day or two.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and thanks for those that posed questions. Marion, thank you for the beautiful things that you said. And Victoria, thanks for being brave.
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