SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, and welcome to Skullport. Exploring Psychospiritual Horizons with your hosts, Cedric Speyer and Deanna Magal. Cedric is a doctor and therapist who developed the interview guidance model and is a pathfinder in the psycho-spiritual realm. Deanna created the Essential Skull Care Model, a model suitable for therapists, coaches, and healers. The monthly episodes of Skull Portal feature guests sharing insights on their personal paths and professional practices. Thank you for tuning in for the Skull Talk with Talk on the Twitter Placing Teachers and Guides. That's Patrick, Deanna, and guests explore new evolutionary landscapes.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

And our name invokes that with the our guests are an opening to um psycho-spiritual matters and how their gifts and talents meet the world's need. And today we have a great example of that in Terry. And uh I'd like to lead with an opening invocation. And this this this month is very up because we have a minister in the room. So um May the spirit flow freely through our conversation and this gathering, allowing it to be both energizing and edifying. And then part of our format is an opening quote that has a tie-in to the theme, and this one comes from the Talmud. Um the Jewish commentary on the Torah. You may know it, it goes like this. Again, think of Terry's uh vocation. Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now. Love, mercy now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it. So now we'll have a conversation about the uncompleted work and the and uh how we are not abandoning it.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Oh, Terry. Um we're just gonna go right to the heart of it. And I'm wondering if you could, I mean, I know your background and your bat your bio is is listed on the podcast, but um I'm wondering if you could tell us what what sense of spirituality what about that in your growing up years and into your early adulthood chose made you choose your your vocation, like what's the spirit behind the work?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah. Um there's it's it's such a a journey, an evolving journey. Um I think let me begin by uh just uh sharing the story of um an epiphany that occurred to me during my college years um that I I write about in my book, um, because it was a foundational turning point for me where um I uh I'd always been very uh very spiritual as a child and growing up and very interested in um at my church, um religious stuff, the Bible. Um, but I was also very, very shy, um, very fearful, just uh intensely anxious um young person. Um I still am really, but um I just have uh learned lots of coping mechanisms now. But um, and and so the so the the religious interests, the spiritual interest that was always a part of me, but I was um just sort of disguarded that as like, yeah, but that's not like um I I never acted on it, I guess I should say, because I was too afraid to. And um, I had a moment in my um when I was in college, it was either sophomore or junior year, which was um, and I was just reading a book, and I can't even tell you what book it was, but lots of my you you'll as you get to know me, lots of my epiphanies occur while I'm reading or writing. And um, it just dawned on me when I was reading this book, it was about Jesus, it was something fictional, like about Jesus comes back, and um, and there was something I read in there that just made me realize that God wanted more from me, uh, more from me than I ever imagined for myself. And and there was a there was a call there for me to uh at that point go to seminary um after college and uh just uh dip my toe into the water of ministry, ordained ministry. And um, and that moment reading that book um really turned my world upside down because uh it scared me to death, really. And I um immediately said no. And there there's been lots of moments like this um where I feel called to something. And and um I've actually talked about uh the concept of call with with groups, and and I worked with college students as a college chaplain, and we talked a lot about the sense of call, and and I always advise people to look for the patterns because I think there's there's unique patterns in the way God or spirit speaks to us and calls us, and and my pattern is often is is an immediate rejection, like, oh no, I can't do that. That's really scary. And um, and but then there's the persistence of the call. Like I try to get away from it, I try to close the door, but um, but uh something or someone keeps opening the door after I close it and the opportunity won't go away, and then it becomes such a terrible thorn in my side that I just I just sort of give in in like, well, fine then God, I'll try this. Um, but it's not a binding deal. I'm just gonna try it, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:35

It's like the story of Jonah and the whale.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

It is, it is. This is I begrudgingly say, fine, I'll go to seminary, but I'm not gonna like it, right? But um and and um and so that that really led me into pursuing um my seminary education and then um just kept unfolding this call for me. I I think um I think vocation and call is something that shifts and changes as you um move through life, um in terms of what opportunities um come into your context. Um and you know, real the the space I'm in right now, I mean I'm now serving as the editor of the Presbyterian Outlook, and one of the threads of my call has always been writing, um, a love for writing. Um and I actually another uh phrase, uh if you're familiar with Frederick Biekner, he's a Presbyterian pastor, but a one beautiful writer too. And um whenever I I would talk to college students out about discerning their call or their vocation, I I give them what I call the Beakner formula. Um, and I'm paraphrasing here, but but Frederick Biekner talks about vocation is finding that place where your deepest joy or deepest gladness meets the world's deep needs. And and so that that has sort of evolved for me, but I feel like right now I'm living into really the truest form of that for me, because it it it brings me deep gladness to write and to um um share my experiences, my thoughts, um, in a very honest um, I believe in being very honest and authentic in in the hopes that they meet a need in people that where it will resonate and um they'll find something where they can um to know they're not alone and that we um we together we we have shared purpose. Um and and so so that that's my sweet spot of vocation right now that I'm living into the most.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

And um when you say death, it's scared to death, yeah, it's death of the ego, yeah, but not death, just another layer of trying to do it on our own steam. Yes, yes, it's actually a relief when another layer goes, right? You can be carried, you can be carried.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

I can be carried, and then I um I love that death of ego too, because um there's just yeah, there's self-pursuit that you know, as opposed to the pursuit that's the spiritual pursuit, the pursuiting pursuing what you are called to do to meet a need in the world. And um and then I think there's my trouble was always the self-negating messages that told me I'm not talented enough for this. I nobody would, you know, I can't do any good there. Um I can't I can't do this, I can't do this. Kind of the defeating thing parts because that's also part of the edo ego.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

I and um uh that actually brings us to the to your vocation, like the real nature of it, because people get discouraged thinking, well, I can visit some people in prison, but what's that gonna do? It's not gonna solve the systemic sin in society, but you've you found a way on the individual level to go to that intersection where you're meeting the people individually in groups, and you're very aware of this, what they call systemic sin. Yes, right, so that's that's like your crossroads, and so we're interested in what's that's like to go to those crossroads.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Right, right, yeah, and it was the first time um when I and is speaking about I uh again, it was another call moment for me where I lived in the rural in rural Illinois at the time as a college chaplain, and 15 miles down the road is this men's prison that I drove by all the time and ignored. It was like it was like calling to me, and and it was just there's a constant inner dialogue of yeah, there's that's that's what's there, but I I can't go there. I can't there's nothing I can do there. And if I do try, I'll get overwhelmed by the need. That was a big part of it. Um, but again, it was a persistent call that um yeah, I just got sick of myself, so I had to, and then it snowballed into this huge thing where I was like, wow, I I should write a book about this.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

So yeah. And so that's how I first came to know of you through your book. Um and I I had said earlier to you, your book showed up at a necessary time, and the book is entitled Necessary Risks. So this was during the pandemic, everybody's on lockdown. Um, and I've been a counselor for a thousand years, and I decided to get my doctorate in multi-faith spiritual direction. And so the the program was very diverse, um, and we learned about all sorts of spiritual practices and religions, etc., of the world. And in the backdrop and the forefront, and especially in the United States, was all of this um turmoil around race and equity and inclusion. And I was on the board of the Florida State University uh Presbyterian Ministry, uh, which is an inclusive um ministry on campus, one of the safe spaces on campus. Um and and it was also I'm I'm of an age now, so I I had a I struggled with pronouns, like, okay, how do I do this? Even though in my heart I feel completely inclusive and accepting, it was another learning curve for me. It was all a learning curve for me. Um, and then your book showed up, and I got to sit in on a talk with you. Oh and it just really, yeah, you invited all the Eukirk campus ministers, and because I was a board member, I I came. But this book just was so it it wasn't a difficult read for one. You told your story, and then you gave like, okay, here's my story. If you want to do something, here's some action steps you can actually take. So I just can't thank you enough for this book.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Can you say a bit about the title? So which is at the core, the necessary risks and necessary risks, um ones you took and the ones you recommend. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, yeah. So the um, you know, well, there's a process to publishing a book. It, you know, you have to find um a message that resonates um and that a publisher will buy. And there were many iterations of the book. Um, you know, it really started sort of more memoir-like about my experiences. But um, I had an acquisitions editor at Fortress who said, you know, what I'm really looking for is a book on risk. And I said, Oh, you know, that's something I have something to say about because I feel like God just continuously calls me to take risks. And um it drives me crazy, it makes me highly anxious, but it has it has led me to a meaningful life and and wisdom and knowledge that I never would have had had I not taken certain risks. And so, so each chapter is focused on a on a different risk that um that I believe especially, you know, and I often think like my audience, I I joke, but it's kind of true, is like white anxious women like me who want to do good and who understand there are problems and that we have something to contribute, but are sort of just afraid of um not only um you know making mistakes um or not doing not being able to do good or contribute, but um to you know, I am always afraid of doing harm. You know, if I if I one of the risks is risk speaking. Um if I, you know, even this podcast, I'm like, oh my gosh, I am a white privileged woman. I'm gonna be going on this podcast and I'm gonna be talking about race, and I am going to get something wrong because it's it's not, it was never a part of my vocabulary. My um I was I was um privileged to not, I don't, I didn't have to deal with racism growing up. Um, and so there's so much I don't know and so much I can't know. And and so there is a real fear of sort of wading into even this dialogue and and feeling like, you know, I'm gonna make a mistake. Um but what I've learned in the process of of sort of pushing myself to take risks, to risk speaking, to risk risk going. For me, that was risk going to the prison, or risk going and reaching out to um the African American students on my college campus or the Latino students, you know, risk actually physically going to places and people that were different than me and had different life experiences.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Um, risk learning, like learning uh question just came up in the chat, like a particular examples of risks that you took.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

So yeah, oh good. And um yeah, so so these risks. Um I I just share categories of risk taking and then sort of the ways I struggled through those risks and and then really benefited. I mean, the book for me, um again, writing is the way I learn. Um, and that just the writing of the book itself was a process um of learning, and I will also say a process of liberation. I was, you know, I believe education is liberation, and and and it's that um because I know so much more now, having taken risks and really gone places and delved delved into materials that I wouldn't have uh previously. I I am a different person um than when I first started the journey that was the book and even before it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

So that sounds like a good therapist's question. Like, you know, when somebody's anxious or fearful to run them through, well, what would happen if you went in that direction if you did this, then what? You know, then if then if so, then what question? I think that's where it's coming from. Like what what did you have to lose?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Or right, right, yeah, yeah, and and to um I think we have a tendency to catastrophize. Um, at least I do. Um, and so we think of the worst, you know, in my head, if I go to this man's prison, I'm gonna get stabbed. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, there's gonna be a riot.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

Uh, you know, example.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Right. And and then and then I go, and yeah, it is scary. I'm a little claustrophobic. There's a lot of locked doors, you can't get out, there's no you don't have a cell phone. I mean, I'm not gonna say it wasn't uncomfortable, but but yeah, but I also, you know, once I was able to um negotiate what was going on in my mind and and the messages my fear was telling me, and I made it in, I met I met the most beautiful human beings that are locked up inside our these walls. Um yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

That's that's a big a big risk that and I think all the risks, as you said, there's fear underlying the risk, whatever the risk is. So even when I was working You know, mission work at the campus ministry, and I didn't know my pronouns, right? The risk is that for me was that people were going to assume I didn't care or I was not um as inclusive as I claimed to be. So I was afraid to ask. I was afraid to become informed within the community I was working.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Did you ever, Terry, did you ever have a bad experience where someone confronts you and says, Who are you? This to talk, even talk about this, a privileged white woman? Did that ever happen?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Um like uh I I have yes, so I have there's a couple um talking about Ray, I've had lots of different experiences now as I've kind of toured with the book and talked about the book. Um and um uh first of all, I should say in my contract with Fortress, I negotiated to have a sensitivity reader. I said, I'm not gonna write this book if I don't have a person of color read it and give me feedback on it. You know, it's it um it was very important to me, and it remains important to me that I listen particularly to people of color um or or people from other marginalized communities who have feedback for me. Um and I have encountered that um as I've talked. Um and so there's the and and I always I always uh make sure I make space to really within my spirit even to receive that feedback um and not uh not there's a you know the white fragility is is is the one of the you know problems um in in um conversations about um race where white people just cannot hear the feedback from people of color and and it react defensively and that and that that fragility was definitely within me. Um but I have come to realize I know how much I don't know. This is is is my truth. And and and so, but but it is also uh there's a there's a question about what is a particular risk I have taken as a white woman. Um, but I am committed to the risk of speaking. Um and and and my my my risk really is literally opening opening my mouth in conversations like this is is a risk because I will get things wrong and I do I I should be corrected if I get something wrong. And on I'm I'm much less fragile now because I've I've been putting myself in these spaces where I have to open my mouth and say something. Um but the alternative for me is the understanding that staying silent is does nothing to uh it actually aids the oppression, right? It's the it's the um it's not I I I I talk about how silence is not neutral. Um Ellie Wiesel has a great quote about um, you know, you cannot you cannot stay silent in the face of oppression. It's like the moving sidewalk, right? As a as a white privileged woman, I am on the moving sidewalk. And if I if I do not uh moving me forward, and if I don't speak or say anything against the the system that it that we are all moving forward on, then then I'm just benefiting from the system and not doing anything to disrupt disrupt it or say so it's not neutral. My silence is not neutral. And so so it's really very important to me that I open my mouth. And you know, even even with what comes out is ineloquent, um, even if I make mistakes, it is very important for me, like um, like Deanna, with your your example too, the pronouns to just like and because I've been also been in um I remember one conversation at a in a class where this was at the very beginning of my journey where I was not opening my mouth, and we were having a discussion, and there was a young um uh a black male student who was really speaking up kind of passionately in a room full of white people, and I just sat there in silence because I was, you know, and that I I think this happens, frankly, to white people. We don't know what to say or do, so we do nothing and we freeze. Um, we want to be helpful, but we just freeze and we get paralyzed. And and I'm thinking, right, well, he knows this this black student knows that I'm an ally, right? He knows I'm with him, but but how does he unless I say so? Unless I open my mouth and just to say, even if I just open my mouth enough to say with a quivering voice, I hear you, I'm listening to you, I'm with, I'm with you. I did I don't have the words right now to respond, but I know I just want you to know that I'm hearing you and listening to you and I'm with you, right? So um, because when we but when we don't speak up, there's just so much we just run relying on everybody's assumptions.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

How do you how do you get past like this cycle of anger and guilt, you know? So that like that's what comes to me when I'm using I'm thinking, well, it could be like just anger and guilt playing off each other, which wouldn't l wouldn't be constructive. Yeah, it would.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Do you mean anger and guilt within myself? No, I mean in the dynamic, in the in the dialogue and stuff, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Like the angry the angry side of you know the systemic sin and then the guilt side of being part of it. I don't see that, like I see that as kind of impasse.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Okay, how do you get past that?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Um I I I always um well the in in one sense I've had um I I I let me speak to it for for both sides. Um there's times when I've been very angry and I have to uh not speak out of my anger and calm myself. And and and there's there's emotions that can take take uh take me out of my best self. Um on the other side of that, I have I have heard in in dialogues on race, um uh you know people of color speaking loudly and passionately from um great frustration, understandable frustration, and then even rage at the uh injustice and at not being heard for so long. And so it's really important to me to have knowledge, one to not tone police, right? That's a that's a big, big thing, big learning of mine. That there's a reason there is all that the anger, the rage is there, there's real justifiable reasons, and there's stories underneath these emotions, there's context, there's history, there's um generations of trauma um living in in um in bodies that comes out when we talk, and so so it's always so when you hear someone you you it's really important to try to take that whole context into play.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Also hold this hold the space, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Hold the space and and receive the whole person, yeah. Um yeah, might it might just be words that are being fired at you, yeah. There's but there's layers underneath those words.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

That's a great expression. First time I've heard it, tone tone police, yeah, tone policing. And that that happens a lot in marriages and partnerships.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Yeah, and it's also about not, you know, when you're faced with an interaction or observing an interaction, not taking it personally. Yeah, removing the bias, being the curious observer, um, you know, hearing the whole story, not just one part of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and um and and what it what it really it does really take a um a great sense of sort of I talked about um an interiority. There's a you know, I have to I have to continually monitor what is going on within me in order to authentically be in relationship and dialogue with others. Like, um, you know, I'll be getting ready to have a conversation or I'll be feeling start to feel anxious. And I have to sort of, I have to really examine my emotions and understand where they're coming from, um, in order to be my best um, you know, to be in that conversation in the in the best, most authentic, most hopefully healing way that I can I can be. Um you know, so a lot of this, a lot of this work that I'm I'm involved in is really is at its core an evolution of self, of coming to understand ourselves, how we react to others, um, why we react to others the way we do, particularly if the other is someone who is different than us, um, from a different culture, a different life context, different class. There's many forms of privilege. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

You just described like a central principle of therapy. It was a good description that you just gave of that. You know, to be self-aware enough to be able to hold whatever the dynamic is in the client.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

And to realize it influences them according to the the other principle of attunement. To be able to do the attunement. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Right. I and I remember too, um, in my pastoral counseling classes, we always talked about having a non-anxious presence, um, which is terribly difficult for me because I'm a very anxious person. But it it's um but if I can uh sort of get some distance on those anxious emotions to what's underneath, then it it really does help me to be less anxious, and then I'm much more courageous than I am allowed, then I am I find that there is courage in me. I think there's courage. I think there's courage in all of us, but um it's like it gets it's get it gets covered up by a lot of junk, you know, or or just cultural messages, um messages we we send ourselves, messages we send about others, we we quickly write people off as opposed to really seeking to get to know them in their context.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Well, you have the advantage of the Holy Spirit flowing through you at all times, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, agree. Yeah, the spirit of truth and wisdom.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

So can you talk a little bit about the different types of privilege um from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah, I it's I think it's really important to define terms. Um and when I speak of privilege, um I also I I define it sort of as unearned advantages that that people have. Um but there's um um professor at Yale University, Claudia Rankin, who um who wrote who writes these beautiful books. She's a poet and an artist, and um, and um she talks about there's a way she talks about privilege as um understanding as when uh sort of problems are issues that that don't interfere with your reality. So um uh mass incarceration is a huge issue that I am interested in. I'm a person who believes in a justice or believes in in seeking justice, and I think our criminal justice system is is um hopelessly ne in need of um really it's just it's a mess. Um and and yet the issue of mass incarceration didn't interfere with my reality because I didn't know anybody who was incarcerated, you know, until I went to the prison. Um, and so it wasn't it never that that issue never affected my life. You know, poverty really doesn't interfere with my reality because I have enough money to buy food and shelter and um uh there's the the also the um privilege, you know, when we talk about wealth inequality, we we need um to acknowledge inherited wealth um that white Americans enjoy um um in in much abundance over our African American, African American Americans due to the history of our nation. Um so there's there's class privilege, um, there's racial privilege. Um I do not have to worry, I don't give my children the talk um if they get pulled over by a police officer. Um I actually often think about my privilege when I'm driving. It's it's um it's something um if if you all have ever um uh as a as a white woman in the living in the United States, you know how everybody like goes somewhere and forgets their wallet or their driver's license at some point in your life? I did that recently, and I was, and so you like, oh, I need to drive really carefully on my way home, like extra careful because I don't have my driver's license with me, but I have to get home and you don't realize it until you're out. And it's those kind of moments where I'm like, you know, if I were a black person driving and I forgot my license, my, you know, I just think about these things now so much. Um it it's it's a whole new next level of anxiety and fear that, you know, I for I pretty much presume that if if I get pulled over, I I'll get a ticket or I'll get off because I look like this. Um and it's just a whole different experience um for people who are black or brown um from immigrant communities in in the United States right now. So um, so those are the kind of things I think of now when I'm living my life, um about how there's just some things that that are easier for me. And there's more opportunities for me. You know, I I I've read about um black families choosing uh a more sort of white name for their children so that they'll have better advantages when they put it down on a on a resume. You know, I mean, those are the things I don't have to think about. Um I know that's that's a lot of privilege.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Yeah, and and I guess one example I recently was aware of, and I think that's part of it, is just being intentional and being aware. Um my local doctor's office. I live in a rural county next to a larger metropolitan area. Um, and they ask every patient during the you know, the intake, do you have enough food to eat? And that's you know, not something I have to personally worry about. But I did have the experience many years ago of working a food pantry for a neighborhood and feeding 50 families on a Saturday morning. So without having had that lived experience, that question would have just gone right by me. No, I'm good. Next yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

And then the, you know, and the reverberations of not having enough food to eat. It's just, you know, can't concentrate, um, moody, you know, I I mean, I get so cranky if I'm hungry, right? But I've got I got food everywhere. You know, you just think about the uh I I'm just often kind of going through the steps too of what life would be like trying to, you know, put myself in the shoes of someone that doesn't have enough food to eat.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Right. Yeah, that's seems to be what it's all about, right? Well walk a mile in the other person's moccasins.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah. And then work and do some some do something with that knowledge to help help make our world a little more just.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Yeah, the way I connect with it, you know, the kind of empathy you're talking about is uh the male female situation because I've never thought anything of like walking through dark alleys at night. Like really, like it doesn't even cross my mind. You know maybe dangerous parts of the city, maybe, but you know, that's something that women uh always have to be mindful and think about.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Right. Mindful of where where we walk, um, what we wear.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

And uh I mean race is isn't such a big thing in Canada. I mean it is we have it, but but race is a broad spectrum anyway, so it's not just about African Americans. So I guess we do we do have it. Yeah, experience. I don't know what it means, I'll just tell you. So it's downtown Montreal when I was younger, and these three black guys like uh surrounded me, you know. Both all three of them were like I had to look up because they're all much bigger than me. And like just surrounding me, and you know, obviously intimidation, and I they said, you know, we need twenty dollars, or and I said I you see the the story is that I was completely relaxed. And and I said, uh so do I, and they all cracked up and left me alone. Uh because I didn't I I mean I guess I didn't perceive them as the the enemy or the monster. I didn't act that way, like they were the enemy or they were the threat. Like you know, I just I just kind of you know. drived with them and they got it immediately.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

There's been three three men of any color or race.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Yeah. But they were using they were using the image to intimidate me. It was a bit different if it was white men. You know, the whole the whole approach would be a little different.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

You know they were really relying on me being afraid of this the other in that form.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Mm-hmm. So there's a question in the chat. Is there data to support the notion that black families are changing their children's names to more English sounding names? I because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Oh yeah. I don't have dad I have I've heard heard that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Or read that somewhere. And um but you know and and black uh families there's many you know and this is me reading black writers I'm very intentional about um and that's why my book is centered on on the thought on a different thought leader of color. I'm very intentional about reading um their words and and because because my education has been predominantly white my my throughout my master's degree and my doctorate I am just I've been ensconced in white scholarship and um white writers and that that was something I didn't really wake up to until late in my life. And so the whole um the whole year I was writing the book I I made an agreement I said I'm just going to read um thought leaders of color. And so so those these these things come from reading their work um and it's certainly uh been said over and over about black families having the talk um with their children about um what to do where to have their hands if they are pulled over by the police in this country yeah right and the police need somebody mentioned about the training yeah needed for the police just to not be so trigger happy yeah I mean both with race and with mental illness is another one to right right to recognize what they're dealing with and not react to it. Yeah I I I might pull it off my shelf if I can run what the the another book I really recommend is Rezma Menekem's My Grandmother's Hands um if you all are um uh he's uh he's uh he studied under Bessel Vanderkoek who is a sort of a leader and he wrote the body keeps the score on trauma and Rezma's book of my grandmother's hands is all about our like really our embodied racism and um you know Cedric even you talking about I was thinking about as you were talking about when you walked into this group of three black men you know I I am I'm constantly at work at how it's not just what's in your head but it's how your body is responding to people who are different. You know I am much more conscious now of you know I grew up outside Detroit I was I was taught to fear black people there are all these cultural messages myths about black people that I was taught so if I saw a black man on the street my body would instinctively react and I could contract across the other side um it's a basic yeah the basic bodily feeling of contracting protecting or opening and being available so yes so it's um res resma menicum is the name of the author um my grandmother's hands and what's really beautiful about his book is that he also goes into um because he's about healing we have to heal from our trauma this is racial trauma that lives and we we're we're really learning a lot more about trauma and how it's passed from generation to generation and and he includes police officers in this book right so police officers their work is traumatizing they are in life and death situations and and what I loved it was a real compassionate approach to saying we need to allow police officers to get the healing the space and time they need after a traumatic incident so that they aren't trigger happy so they can work through the embedded trauma in their bodies and and and and so we can all be safer because of that. Really beautiful book.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

And I think isn't it Vanderkolk who says that trauma actually changes the cellular structure within our bodies may maybe I I think he's one of the founding thought leaders on that.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Yeah yeah definitely is um everything you're saying sorry oh no go ahead everything you're saying just clicked because I worked in psychiatric emergency where the the most psychotic people or deranged would come in and that's another other right another feared other is um mentally ill or right and it's always associated with danger.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

So that's where I practiced because you know I dealt I developed a reputation that when I was on duty nothing would happen there would be no violent incidents and all I did was just relax bodily and not perceive them as the other so it's like okay you're mentally ill like so am I you just happen to be further along the scale at this moment you know yeah yeah the thing is I didn't even have to say that that was like the self-awareness you're talking about I would believe it I would relax and then and they would get the message without me saying that right they would feel they'd feel it and they'd relax and you know things would be fine on the ward right right and you just I mean they talk about you know how to de-escalate situations and our police officers really need to be trained in how to de-escalate yeah um situations and that's a big part of it right right um you know if there's like it's such a talk about a need in society because it's so interior and yeah I mean going by the stereotype of police they're not the most introspective people by the caricature.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Yeah and uh it's a real need though like what we're talking about for the for them right right there's a question and we have about five minutes so I just want to um what is your view on D'Angelo's work? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

I um I I personally have been um really informed by Robin D'Angelo's work um and so I've I've found great benefit from it but I I have I've heard and again this goes to listening to people I've heard the criticism of Robin D'Angelo by people of color who've said that she hasn't given um credit to the learning that she has required acquired from from the people of color that she works with and and so so I hear that and I recognize that I can say I've benefited from it but but I think um I think there's more self-reflection on her part to be done and more work in that in that respect too.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

As we're winding down what's the thing that has surprised you most about this stage of your life gosh um that I get in invited to do things like this and you know that I um yeah that I I have I just I do I I I get I I realize how much I love to learn.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

That's just a really I'm I'm very um I get excited to learn I get excited about um growing as a person and and and trying to become a better person and I think what's um uh constantly surprising to me is when others kind of benefit from what what I have to say right and it's it's all just in the hope to contribute to good um and uh you know it it is truly because the more I learn the more I realize I I I know I know I know so little it's it's the I you know I I come to these spaces incredibly humble because there are people on the zoom who know a lot more than me um but it just is oh it just feels good to know that I do have something could to contribute um spirit leads me to that and and um it's important that I don't stop that flow right yeah good answer and your hope for the world that's in such a mess now with three minutes to go what's your hope for the world um I I I'm just gonna say I'm doing a lot of work on on the concept of beloved community um and what Martin Luther King meant by beloved community which is we we um we make that concept a lot smaller than it really is I mean it is all of us together living together even those we consider our enemies and it's um reconciliation it's it's peace and nonviolence um and it's um nobody's excluded so it's really hard work in other words but it's that place of evolution where we can learn to live together and love together and and that's that's my my hope for us. Yeah amen to that somebody says thank you very thought provoking hour thank you thank you all for tuning in and and feeling a listening hour yes right the 1059 it's mostly thanks thanks in the chat and that's great that's great thank you so the closing blessing just for you is may you be under God's grace safe in her care and trusting his guidance beautiful thank you so much thank you Cedric Deanna appreciate the conversation and thanks to everybody for tuning in thank you for being here