SPEAKER_00 0:41

Explore new evolutionary landscape.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Welcome to Soul Portals again. And the the general theme of Soul Portals is how we provide windows for each other. So today is a special Valentine's edition. The subject of conscious companionship. And we're pleased to have Nico Cannon and Anastasia Tumanova as our guests and uh willing to share with us some of the joys and dynamics of their own marriage. Um I always open with an invocation, short one, which is may the spirit flow freely through this conversation, allowing it to be both energizing and edifying. Amen. Another word on our podcast on Soul Portals, because both Deanna and I are both have backgrounds integrating psychology and spirituality, so that's what we're all about. This the synthesis, bring those streams together. Uh and this is uh a really good occasion to see how it applies to relation canoes. I actually use the word relation canoe instead of relationship. Relation canoe is a lot more flexible and easy to easier to navigate. Okay, so I'll I I like to lead off with a quote to set the tone, and this one comes from Leonard Cohen, who's from my hometown in Montreal. The poet, the singer, songwriter. And he says, this is very relevant. I think marriage is the hottest furnace of the spirit today, much more difficult than solitude, much more challenging for people who want to work on themselves. It's a situation in which there are no alibis excruciating most of the time, but it's only in this situation that any kind of work can be done. And I wouldn't agree only in that situation that would eliminate all the you know monks and nuns who you know the context of community, but he's talking about our theme, which is relation canoes as an opportunity for soul work and how we can be both windows and mirrors for each other. Um so before I get into your experience, uh brief.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Oh no, Deanna, you were gonna ask about Yeah, I'm I'm just hoping um for a brief, you know, one or two sentences each from you about how you um summarize your soul's work. I mean, obviously you two do a lot of um events and workshops and and you have a mission, obviously. So I'm just hoping for a summary of that from each of you.

SPEAKER_06 4:03

So I can go first in in a succinct way. Uh over the last decade, I realized that most of what we struggle with as adults relationally, but also if we're on our own, can be traced to a decent degree to the dysfunction of our family. Meaning the the place that the structure that was supposed to hold us, lift us up, and and and and be a solid way of of yeah, of of support and and nourishment is usually the one that uh uh creates a kink or a dent in our development. So without going too much into my history right now, I work with especially with couples in distress. I I jokingly say that uh I help people go back from cellmates to soulmates, because that's the reality that many of us live in. Like we've we may feel at times that we're sharing sales, we're in a jail, we're caged in with somebody we don't like, and but that was somebody that we loved at a certain point. So the core of my work is that is helping people in long-term community relationships uh learn how to repair, how to set up certain structures for the relationship to thrive, and above all, how to like because you said the relationship can do it, it requires a lot of versatility, a lot of agility, and a lot of work. Like anything that is beautiful and and worth creating requires a lot of effort and patience and attention, yeah. And I and for me, that's if we don't see it as a as a spiritual um journey, yeah, it's possible to sustain in the long term, it won't it won't hold. So it's that helping people repair and and hopefully transform the context in which they relate to each other. And I mean, uh in terms of methods from online to live events, um, and for people who are maybe on the tail end of of something very difficult, then we we we sit with with plant medicine once a year with some elders, some shamans in Colombia to go to an ayahuasca ceremony. This is like if you want to get it sorted out in in 10 days and and and really get to the to the bottom of it, uh yeah, that's I'll say that that's the core of it for me right now.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

So for me, I I work mostly with women and through a very powerful tool called the Breath of Freedom through breath work, helping them to reconnect with their heart, with their real desires that are coming from their soul, from their heart, letting go of uh stagnations in the body, emotions that were suppressed, uh, maybe some memories, maybe some traumatic situations from the past. And I call this practice breath of freedom. I like to I'm I'm gonna love the word freedom because this practice can literally liberate your cell, your body from anything that is no longer serving serves you. So this is um yeah, um right now I'm creating a program that is gonna be like 10 weeks and we're gonna gather together and do a lot of different activities. But the main tool is the breathwork, and I found it a very powerful tool. I would say people who experienced that they felt like they had uh psychedelic experience, and a lot of people who drank ayahuasca, they they said that oh, I'm just I feel like I drank ayahuasca again. So yeah, this is uh the main thing that I'm working on, and another another part is also we are organizing uh retreats also for Russian people. I'm I'm Russian, probably you understood from my name. Um yeah, so that's uh things that I'm focusing on.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Yeah, thank you. Okay, that that's a great title. Breath of freedom. Really nice. Um okay. One one thing we should remember on Valentine's Day is that romantic love was historically not associated with marriage. That's a very recent development. Marriage was marriage, and romantic love not as we know it today, like emerged from the the troubradors, and it was a spiritual path. It was the western equivalent of Tana of Tantra. Um, and a and a lot of the the um the platonic version was supposed to take place with a married woman so that you her husband took care of the rest and he could focus on the the mutual soul works. So briefly, I wanted to do a historical review to bring us up to having a couple like this in 2024 because uh it's easy to forget or not know about the whole historical trajectory. So I did in broad strokes, you know. So there were the first phase was a marriage was just an extension of property and part of a religious covenant, and then it as it evolved into something more personal, it was it became a role-playing transaction, completely embedded in social norms and cultural, you know, cultural morries. Then coming closer to us, it became like need a need meeting fulfillment, meeting each other's needs. You know, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And really recently, it's a vehicle for personal growth and evolution. That's very, very recent to have two individuated people who come together to do their soul work, and you guys are a great example of that. So to give you like a can opener for for speaking about your experience. There's so many models, you know, there's so many models of uh for relation canoes. Um, but I chose one of them, which is uh the four tasks you you need to be uh integrated uh couple and really doing your work. So it's not just standing with somebody, of course, standing with is companionship, but you also have to be standing for something and standing for each other, and standing apart and standing against. So I invite each of you to share in those ways how you've individually been doing that work and together, like or anywhere else you want to jump in to you know evolution, evolutionary love relationship, and how you're doing it.

SPEAKER_06 11:43

So if I understand you correctly, like what are we standing for? Standing with standing apart, standing apart.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

The the the therapeutic word is differentiation, when you're able to stand apart from each other, be two persons in your own right, and sometimes standing against, you know, standing up to the other, standing against holding your ground against the other when you do all four, you know, you have a really strong foundation, or you're capable of doing all four.

SPEAKER_04 12:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Because if you didn't, yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Maybe the the the initial question could be just based on what Cedric said, just that brief summary, what's the first thing that comes to mind for each of you as you hear you know, the summary of romance and then um bits about differentiation, standing together apart, with against. What comes up?

SPEAKER_06 12:46

Yeah, the the first thing for me is uh is there's a lot of nuance and social nuance as well as individual, and ultimately a relationship that thrives is one where, in my experience, uh there's a clear understanding that most of what we believe to be true about relationships is I don't want to say wrong, but inherited, and by definition, it will never fit perfectly. It's like some it's like my great-great-great-great-grandfather passed me his uh favorite shirt, but maybe he was a bigger man or a smaller man, and I'm now trying to fit in it. I'm maybe judging myself because I don't fit in it, or judging the shirt because it's too tight, and not realizing that it needs adjustment. So I think that's that's that's the first thing for me, and is uh uh I would say that the true love requires first uh or or conscious companionship requires an act of rebellion where I'm willing to at least put aside everything I've been taught, fed, and thought, yeah, everything that has been passed on to me about what it means to be connected to another human being. Um, I'll say that's that that's the main thing, just because most people I remember when we when when when we got married, so right now we have we have these rings, but we can bring a little close. I don't know if you can like a snake. You can't see they're they're not very expensive, they're they're from a national in India that has uh great meaning to us, uh concentrated uh rings, but they're not they're not you know a $50,000 diamond. And in many ways, I remember one time we had this conversation because in Russia it is it is you know, like there's a certain cultural expectation that the woman will carry a big diamond on her hand, and um and people didn't most people don't know that that a ring was a scene of a contractual agreement, of a transference of ownership from the father to now the husband, and that's why the last name also changed. But we but we we go through so many emotions uh by habit, just just just by routine, and we don't dare to question them. Not to say that that there's something wrong with celebrating our love and our commitment and finding a worthy jewel to commemorate that, like there's nothing wrong with that. But I feel that if we if if it's done just by habit, just just because that's the way it's done, then then we're not conscious. Anything that is done by habit is done unconsciously. So what I rescue from that is that is that we we need to look at at like how did we end up relating? Like how where did I learn what whom I should be the way I should I should show up in my relationship? And and ultimately, uh, you know, and and I think this will probably lead into the you know what what we stand with apart for or against, it's that ultimately we we need to figure out like like who am I and and who do I want to be in this space, and that's very private, and it can only work if we refuse to wear our great-grandfathers, great-grandmothers' skirts and and like make our own clothes, but making our own clothes, we're we're gonna poke our fingers and it's gonna hurt, and it's gonna have holes, and it's gonna be something like right. It's it's it is work, so I'd say that's that's that's what comes up for me.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

That it's a great metaphor by doing it's a great metaphor. The grandfather shirt that's too small for you now. And Anastasia's sorry, Diana.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

And it takes the the concept of marriage, it differentiates the very concept of marriage. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

And Anastasia, uh what are your thoughts or feelings?

SPEAKER_02 17:07

The first um thought that came to my mind is especially for women, um raising their emotional intelligence to really learn how to handle their emotions, how to communicate them, how to express them, because we have them a lot more than men, and how to really honor your emotions, acknowledge your emotions, so you don't just throw it up on your husband or your loved ones in any relationship. So for me, this this is one of the most important things that when I take care of that, I can listen better, I can understand my partner better, I can be yeah, I I mean I can be a better, better partner in any ways. Just if I can handle and take responsibilities for my own inner state. And I see that for a lot of women, um, this is um a difficult part.

SPEAKER_06 18:11

I'd say that's that's that's you know the like this is this is a huge problem in most couples that I work with, and is that the the standing with part is very entangled. It's like we're either codependent or like really pushing each other apart, but still attached to each other, right? Like so this, or it's like if I want to push you, I need to be touching you, I need to be holding you at like I need to be connected to you to push you, and if I'm clinging, just the same, and and uh emotionally this happens a lot. That um, like with one of the vows that we have in our marriage is that like all of your emotions, all of your truth is welcomed, and just because you have an open space to share how you feel and what hurts doesn't mean you can do it violently, just because you can share one thing is to express your emotions, another one to vomit them onto somebody, right? So there's that because sometimes, um, especially I'm from Colombia, and there it's the way that we're we're raised is so pop, drama. It's like it's just drama, a lot of drama. And it is kind of expected that a woman will snap, she will throw plates, close the door, burn his car, like wild things, you know. That in in more developed countries, you think this is this is just like crazy, but in Colombia, this is culturally kind of accepted. Oh, yeah, women are like that. It's like no. Sure, there's a lot of emotional intensity that can bring fire and aliveness to a relationship, but it can burn it to the ground, right? So if you stifle it, like the flame is gone. There's there's no aliveness, it can become something that is very um um what's the word? I'm missing it right now, sterile, right? If there's no emotion, it becomes very sterile. We become very proper. We walk around on actions. If there's too much, then we burn each other. So so what Nastasia was sharing, I think, is is part of our vow, which is we stand with each other in our full expression of of what comes through us, how we feel, our wins, our challenges, our griefs, but but but we never like that. Takes me to one of our second vows, which for me was I said, I promise to do everything within my reach to keep myself happy and joyful, so you are off the hook, and her vow to please, and I promise to do everything that I can to take care of my mind, my body, my heart, my spirit so much that you are off the hook. Meaning, meaning recognize that although although what we do impacts uh each other, that ultimately we're responsible for our inner experience, and ultimately, my responsibility is to keep myself in such a good mood that how is she showing up, I think it it's nice, and vice versa, meaning I can we can all have our own life without and our own pain without crushing our partner under the weight of it, which is I would say in most relationships, this is one of the of the biggest uh yeah you you you're the source of my unhappiness.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

That's how it was before for me. I'm insecure because of you, you did this, or I feel fear because of you. With the time, I realize that I'm insecure because I have insecurity. And it's not about my husband or anything, because that the same feeling I have in my work sometimes, in my I don't know, family gatherings sometimes or my partners. So the feeling is there, just finds expression. And and usually the loved ones, the closest people to you, are the ones who is like triggering those those painful, um unresolved uh trauma traumas.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah, again, what what you guys are talking about is one of the outdated models, which is the missing half, you know that that notion of the missing half. And if you see somebody that way, then that gives them a responsibility that they they don't need to have, that they shouldn't have. That puts the burden you were talking about, the wait that you're not.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

There was a movie. I'm not gonna I'm blanking on the title, but the last the one of the famous quotes from the movie was you complete me. Yeah, and it has become romanticized. But we don't want somebody to complete us. That has to come from within.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Even on this Valentine, they people say my second half. In at least in Russia, we have that expression. Well, what are you gonna give to your second half? Like there's half is you, and half is your partner. You're not you're not complete.

SPEAKER_06 23:44

I mean, in today's world, I think we're so fragmented because everybody has a second half every five to seven years, and then we get another we're quarters by now.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

I'm thinking, you know, some of the people watching, maybe they're watching the recording another time, but they might be saying, Oh my god, this is like the perfect couple. So it brings up the question if you're willing to take the challenge. How are you not the perfect couple? Oh, I can share that.

SPEAKER_06 24:18

Yes, so uh, for example, something something very present was uh just uh an hour before this conversation, we're sitting in in our couch, and we had a very difficult conversation from something that happened a couple of days ago that was not brought to full repair and where emotions were lingering, and and it was sensitive for the both of us, and there were like tears in our eyes, or just a bit of weight over what we experienced. And I remember uh Anastasia looked at me and said, like, why did you decide for us to have this conversation? Like, how how are we gonna show up to this to talk about love and relationships and conscious companionship? Like after such a heavy conversation, and like I stood up to start to organize the studio and I said, I said, I think it was perfect because like the the number one key for uh for a beautiful relationship is the ability to gracefully navigate conflict, and it's not the absence of it, it's just it's just navigating it gracefully and and learning how to repair quickly when when we're not so graceful about it. So for us, there's there's so many instances where where you know I don't think a perf I don't think perfection is a word that we use to scrap our relationship. There are um I'm trying to think of of something very specific. Um let's say there are emotions that are harder for me to to be present to or witness. So um I get overwhelmed very easily. Let's say when I when when Anastasia is feeling sick, I think part of me feels a little bit powerless and and like I wanna like in my mind I would like to fix her, like like just be healthy, just just smile, just be happy. Just why why are you making a long face? You know, and and maybe I don't say it, but with my words, I treat her like like why are you making a big deal, which you know it destroys connection because I'm invalidating her experience at the core of it is my own my own pain of being in the presence of somebody that I love in pain, right? It's my my own inability to really be in connection with with with suffering, which is part of the human experience, and everything I do to try to avoid it and try to fix it in here. And of course, what this what this creates very often is the feeling of uh for anesthetic, like that when she's sick, she's not welcomed, she's not accepted, she's not loved, which then triggers insecurities of maybe abandonment. Like, if tomorrow I'm very sick, like this is this is not a man that I'm safe with because because he changes when I'm feeling oh and I'd say there's many, many, many spaces like that. We are we we have a lot like there's so much that is still unconscious within us, that that needs to be polished. Um and the perfection in in in my relationship, the way that I see it is is like I used to think that a perfect relationship is where everything is just smooth all the time, it just flows, it's effortless, you don't fight, and then now I realize that no perfection is when even each other's shadows and demons can come up, and there's a space to integrate that through love, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah, because there's a robust pardon, it's a you can't avoid the shadow, the shadow work.

SPEAKER_06 28:24

No, yeah, and and and and there's are like there's many things that are not ideal in our relationship, but if one thing we've got a thing like figured out to a very, very healthy place is uh like a robust way of dealing with uh conflict that we know that whatever happens, it's like you know, you have a ship that but you know you have you have uh like the team that touches the holes and put takes out the water, and you and the team works so well that you know, you know what? We we could hit an iceberg, we could like like the biggest wave could come, we'll make it through. It might be unpleasant, it might be hurtful, it might take a while, but we'll make it true. And I think that's that's you know, there's so many things that are not perfect, but it works because we're we're stability behind that.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

But Nico, can I can I ask if you feel like you came to this knowledge and perception of relationships prior to being in this one or during this relationship?

SPEAKER_06 29:34

Both. There was there was a lot a lot of mistakes that I did earlier and and lessons that came through a lot of pain that I caused myself or previous partners. So I came already with with, I mean, and I was in the I've been coaching around relationships for over a decade now, and I came with with some knowledge about that. Some of that was embodied, some of that wasn't. Um, but I will say maybe the like a big part of the growth has happened in the relationship. Because there's there's some things that before we met, I thought, I think I'm ready. I'm and I communicate well, I'm mindful of my emotions, like I meditate with yoga, I drink ayahuasca. Okay, like I think I think I'm ready for it. And then she comes and I'm losing it over little things. And and it was it was hard because it it takes humility to realize, oh I'm like, I think Ramdas said you think you're mad, go spend spend a week with your family, and I think you know, just spend a couple of days with your with your wife.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

You know, Ramdas also Ramdas also said uncooked seeds was his term for what you're talking about. You go in with uncooked seeds and then they get cooked once you're in the alchemical process there.

SPEAKER_06 31:04

Yeah, yeah. I it's it is uh like in relation to the quote that you shared with us at the beginning. Um I think relationships are very fertile soil, meaning it can very it can very easily turn into a bunch of worms and something nasty because it's like it's full of life, right? Like if life rots, it stinks. It's not it's not the piece of plastic that you leave on the counter a month later that smells awful. It's like the fruit, the piece of meat. Like the more life something has, the more it's it can be nourishing or or just really sting. And I think because relationships are such a fertile soil, the work can happen a lot faster, and it can hurt a lot more as well, right? Like it can it magnifies what's happening. So for me, definitely a lot of a lot of my growth has been in marriage, like like coming up with parts of myself that that I never faced because I was never so committed, because before I always had a way out, because before I always you know I could always enter the relationship and take a break or have some distance. And when there's no more hiding, then it's like you know, you're you're forced to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

It's the best spiritual journey ever.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Yeah, and we'd also we'd also like to know a little bit more about your personal journeys and how it led, you know, converged in in the marital journey. But both of you, you know, have strong visions as individuals, and it's like joining forces. And uh so maybe a bit about yeah, your the your your psycho-spiritual paths that led to where you are now you wanna share?

SPEAKER_02 32:59

How many hours do I have?

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Well, we'll have to do a workshop because it was long.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Starting with my childhood, it was how actually most of the people um I had a difficult time. Um very violent, an abusive father, uh wicked mother, um, a lot of um drama, like from those uh Spanish movies. And when I started when I grow was when I was growing up, I started stealing a lot. So it was like a few years of even therapy at school, um, trying to get attention of my parents and being sick very, very often. Painting and like health complications were also present the whole life. And then when I was growing up, I I got an eating disorder, and it was one of the most painful three years in my life. Um uh one day from a lot of uh pain, I just stood up and I went from Russia to Georgia by walk with my friend. We were walking a month there, so it was so much pain, and I I was going to a psychologist and couldn't help me. Hypnotherapist also couldn't help me. Uh, I've tried meditation. It was I felt so much anxiety, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't go to the toilet for four years, four days. Um, I was so much um so much I felt lost completely. And then one day in Bali, actually, I was with my friend and I met Nicholas and he shared about ayahuasca and how it helped him to overcome some addictions in the past and uh different things. I felt a big call to also do the plant medicine. And in the month, I was already in Colombia for the first time uh on the first ayahuasca retreat. That was like I would say it changed my life, and now I can say life before ayahuasca and life after ayahuasca. Um slowly within maybe a year and a half, I started. I changed my friends, I changed my work, I was also lost around that uh topic. I didn't know what to do, and I overcame an eating disorder, and then I started um wondering about more like um playing guitar, singing, you know, when the basic stuff was closed, more or less. I started doing more art, singing, playing guitar, and then I attended this retreat. It was the first Nicholas retreat uh with ayahuasca that he organized, and I met uh a woman, she was a yoga teacher, and I experienced my first breath work. I came out from that experience with my with a big smile and a lot of uh release when I realized that just through breath work, I just released so much pain, so much trauma, so much pressure from from my body. I was blessed out from that experience, and that's yeah, it's how I started uh being more curious about it, and started just breathing all the time, doing different kind of types of breath work, and that's how I came to what I'm doing right now with other people.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

That's awesome, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

And in terms of relationships, um, I didn't have so many partners in my life, I was so close off, and um, I had problems in my sexual life, um, low libido, and actually I never knew anything about communication or how to listen to my partner. So everything I was learning with Nico, and when for the first time I really experienced that actually he's listening, or he's asking, he's curious what's going on in my in my heart, right? During the conversations, yeah, these feelings of safety, of um deep love. I also didn't know that I could laugh. That was also a big question for me before I met Nicholas. I thought, I don't know what is that, I don't know how to laugh. And yeah, I experienced all of this in my relationship with Nicholas, and I'm very grateful.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

I know that's a great description of transformation because I'm asking because I know that each of you must have been through your own journey of transformation before you joined forces, and Nico, leave it time to plug your book because that's the story of your transformation and and how it leads to what you're teaching today. But you can take a few minutes to summarize it. The head the headlines because we want to leave time for questions. We won't, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:15

Um, yeah, I mean, my story is there. Grace, uh, in many ways is the result of a journey where like at one point I thought I'm gonna end up in jail or dead, or worse, you know, uh, because I was hanging out with the wrong people, taking too many drugs. I was living a life that is very distant from from the one I live today, where uh as well is led by trauma, just a lot of alcoholism, drug addiction, uh, sex addiction. At the time I was working as a tattoo artist, so it was also just an environment where there's all of that very available, quick, good money. So it was it was just everything collided to create a soil that was fertile, and I just degraded uh after a very bad breakup. So yeah, like after a couple of overdoses, I woke up one day and I asked myself, like, what's what am I doing with my life? You know, just what's going on. Plan medicine was also, I think, the beginning of that, like realizing that that things could be different and and and then actualizing that because the insight is never enough, but at least it it it traced a possibility, like ooh, this is whom I could be if I get it, if I like if I get my shit together. This is this is this is the man I can be if I actually get straight with myself, if I stop lying, if I stop being deceitful, if I stop betraying my partners, if I like start like caring, if I you know so many things. So um it was uh yeah, like years later, I was I was actually in the jungle in the Amazon, uh, visiting our elder. And in the ceremony, I it it dawned on me the like what I wrote in the book, but it was like before I used to have so much resentment and anger and borderline hatred for my previous partner and what had happened because I thought that like that what she did was like a curse, and for with I mean, I didn't believe in God back then, but I thought, you know what, is this whole thing is just unfair, and then I realized in retrospect like how much love life, the intelligence behind life must have had for me to like push me enough into the advice so that I could like wake up from my slumber and decide to to do something else, you know. Like it it takes a lot of love to to to like with someone that you love to treat them in a way that in the moment they perceive as painful or not compassionate or even unfair. But I like at the tail end of it, I realized this was you know what I what I once cursed and hated and felt that it was you know God or life being unfair, was the the biggest uh gift I had ever received, the biggest show of grace, and and and and for me that was like it brought a lot of things together around understanding that if like if you know if if life I mean, I'll I'll I don't know if if it's okay to use the sore words in this podcast, but if life throws a lot of shit to me, if I smear it all over me, I'm gonna stink and everybody's gonna leave me. But if I put it where it belongs, to the garden, to the roots of of a beautiful flower, like something beautiful will come out of it. And it's up to me, you know. Do I do I just drown in it and just kick and scream because it's unfair, or do I put it in a place where it can become a near and nourishment? And that's that's uh a lot of people used to send me messages on Facebook or social media or email asking about little things. I'm going through this, what do I do? What do I do? And then I realized if if I write a book with like the exact steps that that that I discovered, maybe that can be of use to people who are struggling with pain. Like, because it's rock in the moment, it feels unfair. If I felt like I was a victim of what happened, I felt that a victim of my mother's violence, a victim of my dad's indifference, so many things. And then uh to be able to come back like full circle and and see it as a blessing, it was like it was it was liberating above all. Is it accurate? I don't know, is it right? I don't care about it, but it was it was freeing, like like it's it's as a stance that I chose to take. That the these two is nourishing for me. And and and it's you know, maybe to also come back for two seconds to what we stand for uh in our marriage is that especially what we dislike about one another, about the way we communicate, about what goes wrong, like standing for everything being uh a source of nourishment, a source of growth. Like this is also a stepping stone towards my growth, towards my freedom, towards my me becoming a better partner or just a better person.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

Um we'll call you perfectly imperfect couple, yes. That this is a big question if you give a headline, but uh just came up for me. Do you see yourself as uh on a path to becoming a shaman yourself? Yeah, I know you've you know you've been influenced by a lot of authentic shamans, shamans. Do you see yourself on that path where you would be considered a shaman, people would come to you for that in that role?

SPEAKER_06 44:28

So I I remember I I I thought I thought about it last time I was in Colombia, and then I had quote unquote the worst uh experience with with plant medicine of my life. It like it it took me all the way to heaven and then all the way to hell, and then I was like in this panic attack, paranoia, stress, overwhelm, so many things. And and it and then it showed me say, Oh, you're you're considering this as your path. Like, is this what you want? Because what a shaman does is like he knows how to dance without losing it. In it's blissful, let's do it. It's hell, because people go to shamans to sort out their own hell. They're like, Yeah, the gardener that has to get their hand dirty when somebody else couldn't like put it with it where it belonged, right? And um, it it really humbled me and it showed me that that that I am far from from from ready. That the amount of embodiment, the amount of connection to especially to nature, to my body that is required is is is be beyond where where I am.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

But the headline is you're you're pointed in that direction.

SPEAKER_06 45:39

And and above that, above that, um, like in Colombia, they say like a true shaman is chosen by nature, not they don't choose it, it's it's it's it's like like a politician. If somebody wants to be a politician or a leader, that that person should not be leading, it should be, you know, the town. If the town thinks that you're the most qualified and wise to lead people, you should be in charge. But if you if you want to be in charge, for sure you shouldn't be in charge. So um, yeah, I think but I think it's a noble pursuit to like to live in a way that that that that like to live with so much wisdom and inclusion uh and joy. Uh yeah, like I would love to to live closer to that idea. Whether I I search medicine or not, that's not I don't think I think my medicine is my word.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we want to leave time for some questions. You know, we have some time left for questions. Um John, I don't know if you moderate those from the chat.

SPEAKER_05 46:45

I can do that. So we we've got a bit of time if anybody wants to pop a question in the chat or maybe raise your zoom hand if there's something that you want to ask, and we can get your microphone unmuted. Um I've been scribbling down a few things too, just in case there wasn't any questions, so I could maybe bring a question. Um, but I just want to hold a moment for the group that's with us. Um yeah. Not seeing any requests yet. What one of the things that was on my mind, is that okay, Deanna and Cedric, if I bring a question for and of course for Nicholas and Anastasia to ask you that too. And um one of the things that I was thinking about is like when we really lose that place of centeredness and like we get so activated. And I really appreciate you both talking about when things can get really difficult. And as humans, we can really get out of that centered place and lose ourselves into our anger or distress, and whether you had some ideas about how to how to come back to each other, like ways that you might have found to kind of return to each other and repair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:09

Oh, yeah. I mean that is that is uh a journey, but the the core of it like at the core of it is to really, really, really slow down. We're agitated, our breath, our attention, or everything like everything is like spiraling out of control. The first thing is is is like just to to to really really really really slow down and and and um and be vulnerable, which is the most difficult thing to do in that moment, because that is the moment where we feel the least safe. That is the moment where they are a threat, where everything in our system perceives him or her as a threat, as somebody who can take away my like my peace of mind, my health, my safety, my you know, just there's this fire or fly response. So that I think biologically we want to fight back or run away, and those of two those two things will create more damage now. Becoming vulnerable is the hardest thing. Like, let's say Anastasia comes and says something nasty to me or just attacks me in that moment. I want to like tell her how it is, or yell back, or or maybe offend back because I cannot sit with that pain, so I want to push it back on her. And if I slow down, only takes for one partner to slow down, and then both will like some magnetic pull. If I slow down enough and I realize like that hurts, you know. If it's two seconds of looking at her instead of like pushing back, like I allow for that energy to be processed through my system and I say, Ow, that was painful to hear. That's all it takes for the other person to kind of wake up also from the number and say, like, I like oh I'm sorry, I'm I'm very sorry. I did not, you know, like and then we can come into a place that when it's slower, then then there's the the two adults have come back before that. It's probably like each other's toddler trying to have a conversation, right? So so in essence to slow down, and second, the there's time for there's space and time for everyone's pain, but not at never at the same time, like some order, like okay, we're gonna focus on how you how you're hurt right now, how I hurt you, and then me. But if we if we if I try to prove to her how she hurt me, and then she's trying to prove how I did not hear her, it's like a a race to who's the biggest victim, and yeah, those those two things are. I think the there's more, but the foundations. If I can slow down, and if we can like make space for each one to voice their hurt, then things can can very quickly, it doesn't take too long to repair a connection, but it takes one courageous person willing to open up first.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

You're invoking a lot of the key principles of couple counseling. Is there in this audience? There's people who do couple therapy, couple counseling, and that's like a key principle that the pause and each person has their time to center on what they feel, and then the other and then taking turns to do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

And and the other thing that's very apparent with the two of you is that you both bring that intention to the relationship. So there are a lot of couples who one partner hears what you just said, something similar, and tries to um repair the the the relationship, and it doesn't work because it takes two people being intentional about this process. Yeah, and that's the conscious companionship, right?

SPEAKER_06 52:23

And that's and I will say it is like if I don't if I don't model it for my partner, especially if if my partner doesn't know if they've because nobody's taught these things, like but if I don't model it, how can I know if if they are capable of it or not? Now if I if I enter that place with that intention of repair or being vulnerable, and maybe one time, two or three times it gets like stepped on. If my vulnerability just becomes an invitation towards them inflicting more pain, then I know we don't have a relationship. You know, it's it's also the fastest way to get very clear on whether I should stay or leave a relationship. But most people never go there, then they never allow it because it will be painful. But it's like if you if you put your heart on the table, you can see very clearly what they will do with it. So for it, or they're just smash it, and that and I will tell you everything you need to know about the person you are with and the decision you should make around that relationship, yeah, right? So it's so it's it's a win-win. If they if if they don't join you, you save yourself a lot of trouble. If they join you, you have somebody that you can grow with, right? But most people never never take the leap of faith. So if there are these like like they're never fully in or fully out, and that's and that's most people's relationships.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Yeah, that's very well put. So we just have a couple of minutes. I I want to conclude with another big picture model because I think you are both of you are a good example of this, and uh it's another four-phase uh conscious companionship model, which is going from self-centered, right? The self-centered about my needs, you know, almost versus your needs, right? To to other centered, to being able the capacity other centered when when there's a real respect for each other's needs and the the intention, like Diana was saying, to meet them, and it's mutual. The next level would be us-centered, transpersonal, how our needs as a couple you know feed the community and the family, the community, how it expands. So a sense of we, the couple, and then spirit-centered, what's needed from us, you know, that we can respond together that brings us into a stronger flame, a higher level. So from E to V to we to three, you know, the relationship of where there's a third principle, it's not just two, it's there's a third principle joining you, which is the spiritual one. So, anyway, all to say, everything you've said here, and just your aura together, you're a good example of that progression.

SPEAKER_06 55:24

Thank you, Cedaric.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

And then 1259. I have a closing uh blessing for Valentine's, for everyone, uh, for the world and and beyond. So may unconditional love emanate from our heart chakra, allowing healing light to permeate our planetary home, encircling the earth out into the cosmos. Happy Valentine's.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Thank you.